LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for CASLL-L Archives


CASLL-L Archives

CASLL-L Archives


CASLL-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

CASLL-L Home

CASLL-L Home

CASLL-L  March 2008

CASLL-L March 2008

Subject:

Re: Marche response: a draft beginning

From:

wendy strachan <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CASLL/Inkshed <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:10 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (237 lines)

I agree with Anthony about the tone and content and much appreciate Susan's
taking on this task and then doing it so admirably. Thanks, Susan.

Could I suggest two adjustments: 

1) I think it's misleading to equate writing-intensive courses with first
year comp.  At SFU, the writing-intensive courses are regular content
courses taught by regular faculty in the discipline but significantly
modified to include instruction in writing the genres of that discipline.
Instead of simply assigning writing as usual, the W-course scaffolds
assignments, includes process etc. 

I would like to amend the following with the simple omission of mentioning
writing-intensive.

"And that’s also why requiring a writing course – whether it’s a first-year
comp or English 1000 [or a writing intensive course] – does not meet that
need.  Expecting students to transfer what they learn about writing from
such courses to the rest of their academic career is like expecting the
child who can ride her tricycle down the sidewalk to be able to pass her
driving test without further instruction or practice."

Secondly - and this may be going further than the piece intends - I suggest
adding the following to the statement about writing across the curriculum:
 
When we encourage writing across the curriculum, we encourage our colleagues
to assign journals and reflection pieces, on-line discussions or in-class
responses, and reading and discussion of discipline-specific ways of
expression along with opportunities to practice those forms of expression.
Such experience and practice help students uncover and articulate their
ideas and participate as novice writers in their discipline. 
 
It's impressive to see each person's reading and tweaks.  Hope mine's useful
too.

Best,

Wendy


Phone/Fax: 250-247-8392


-----Original Message-----
From: CASLL/Inkshed [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Anthony
Paré, Dr.
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:28 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Marche response: a draft beginning

Hi Susan,
 
Thanks for crafting this response. I think it has the right tone and content
to counter Marche's well-meaning but blinkered view. University Affairs
isn't the place to engage in a full-length argument, and what you've said
will give readers pause and something to think about while they're pausing.
Aside from the few typos you'll catch in editing, and a conclusion that
might invite more dialogue, I think the piece is ready. But I wonder if you
might mention some of the associations, journals, conferences, and
university departments dedicated to the study and teaching of writing in
Canada and the States. We do seem to remain below the radar. And how would
you like to indicate authorship? As CASLL? On behalf of CASLL?
 
Anthony
 
Anthony Paré 
Centre for the Study and Teaching of Writing
Integrated Studies in Education
Editor, McGill Journal of Education (http://mje.mcgill.ca/index)
McGill University
514-398-5600

________________________________

From: CASLL/Inkshed on behalf of Susan Drain
Sent: Wed 3/19/2008 7:48 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Marche response: a draft beginning



*** WARNING LONG POST: CASLL LISTSERV DOESN'T ALLOW ATTACHMENTS.  I have
put it on the wikispace, though, as well as pasted it below. ***
Dear all,
Let me preface this by saying this is a very odd collaboration -- and I
will not be at all insulted is this draft is not at all what you want to
represent us.  Because it's going to UA, I've made some voice (ethos)
choices that may be very different from what others would do ... but let
me know if this is of any use to the process of responding to the
article.

I have found the responses on the listserv really helpful in terms both
of substance and of approach.

Enough preamble.

Here beginneth the draft:

Those of us in the scholarly field of writing are delighted to find a
positive response to the question "Who cares about writing, anyway?"
(University Affairs, April 2008) We are more used to complaints about
our students' deficiencies, and faint hopes that someone somewhere (the
schools? the writing centre? the English department? divine
intervention?) will rid the university of the plague of error, the
distraction of disorganization, the scourge of non-standard usage, oh,
and while we're at it, could we solve the problem of plagiarism, too?

[Quotation here from one of those lovely 19th c documents?]

So it's a delight to read Sunny Marche, on the need for commitment to
writing in our universities, and not only because his writing has energy
and style.  (Love the anaphora in the first paragraph!  Great use of
rhetorical questions.  Excellent personal details to make the
generalizations vivid.)  There's also so much with which we concur.
Writing matters for most professions.  Writing matters even in a digital
age.  Writing is not an all-or-nothing mysterious gift - it can be
taught and it can be learned. University faculty are all writers.

But University faculty are not all writing scholars.  And just as we
wouldn't dream of teaching marketing, even though we know something
about marketing because we are consumers, so we scholars of writing
would like to clarify some points in Sunny Marche's piece.  These
clarifications will help make our ongoing conversations with colleagues
like Sunny more productive.  We will be brief and selective.

"Writing" is a poor label for the complex of processes that we
understand.  The one word is used to include everything from recognizing
the first glimmer of an idea, through the hard slog of researching and
assembling evidence and drafting to the shaping that we call revision
and the fine-tuning we call editing.   It's not one thing, and it's not
an adjunct to other disciplines.  A discipline is defined, after all,
not by its subject matter alone, but by the characteristic thinking and
writing processes by which knowledge is constructed and communicated in
that field.  So hurrah for marketing professors who care about how
writing is used in the study of marketing, and for math professors, who
see that writing can be used to solve problems, even those usually
expressed in symbols.

That brings us to our second point of clarification.  If we agree (and
we do) that writing needs practice and that writing matters in every
discipline, then we agree that writing across the curriculum is a good
way to ensure that students do get writing practice and do see that
writing matters in all their courses.  That doesn't mean that writing
must assigned across the curriculum in order to be evaluated: no,
writing must be used to serve the purposes of learning across the
curriculum.  When we encourage writing across the curriculum, we
encourage our colleagues to assign journals and reflection pieces,
on-line discussions or in-class responses, to give practice in
uncovering and articulating ideas.  "How do our students know what they
think till they see what they say?"  And they are less likely to be
thinking if their only writing in a course is taking lecture notes - and
even less if they are downloading webnotes or podcasts.

A related clarification hopposed to writing across the curriculum.)  Writing
differs from
discipline to discipline, because writing is so connected to thinking.
Sociology handles evidence differently from, say, history, and in every
discipline various writing genres and conventions have been developed to
suit the intellectual needs of the discipline.  We writing scholars are
quite modest, really.  We know that we're not the best people to teach
apprentice sociologists or historians how to write sociology or history.
 And that's also why requiring a writing course - whether it's a
first-year comp or English 1000 or a writing intensive course - does not
meet that need.  Expecting students to transfer what they learn about
writing from such courses to the rest of their academic career is like
expecting the child who can ride her tricycle down the sidewalk to be
able to pass her driving test without further instruction or practice.
It's the sociologists and the historians (and the marketing profs and
the chemists and the ...) who know how writing works in their
disciplines.  They also know how long it took for them to learn how to
do it.  The commitment to writing therefore needs to be not only across
the curriculum but in the disciplines.

But English is my second language, one sociologist says.  And I don't do
grammar, says the historian.  Well, says the writing scholar, paying
attention to surface correctness is not what we mean when we say writing
needs to be learned in the discipline as part of the discipline.  And
when students understand what they are supposed to be doing
intellectually when they're writing - how the discourse works and sounds
- many of the surface problems disappear.  Explicit knowledge of
grammar, we know, does not readily translate into effective writing.  In
fact, what are often called "grammar problems" are the symptoms, not the
cause, of ineffective writing.

***
Here endeth the beginning.

Susan


Susan Drain, PhD
Department of English
Mount Saint Vincent University
Halifax, NS Canada  B3M 2J6
902 457 6220
[log in to unmask]


This communication, including any attached documentation, is intended only
for the person or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain
confidential, personal, and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized
disclosure, copying, or taking action on the contents is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please contact us
immediately so we may correct our records.
Please then delete or destroy the original transmission and any subsequent
reply.
Thank you.

                -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  To leave the list, send a SIGNOFF CASLL command to
  [log in to unmask] or, if you experience difficulties,
         write to Russ Hunt at [log in to unmask]

For the list archives and information about the organization,
    its newsletter, and the annual conference, go to
              http://www.stu.ca/inkshed/
                 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

                -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  To leave the list, send a SIGNOFF CASLL command to
  [log in to unmask] or, if you experience difficulties,
         write to Russ Hunt at [log in to unmask]

For the list archives and information about the organization,
    its newsletter, and the annual conference, go to
              http://www.stu.ca/inkshed/
                 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

                -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  To leave the list, send a SIGNOFF CASLL command to
  [log in to unmask] or, if you experience difficulties,
         write to Russ Hunt at [log in to unmask]

For the list archives and information about the organization,
    its newsletter, and the annual conference, go to
              http://www.stu.ca/inkshed/
                 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
September 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011, Week 1
January 2011
December 2010
October 2010
April 2010
February 2010
January 2010
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995
October 1995
September 1995
August 1995
July 1995
June 1995
May 1995
April 1995
March 1995
February 1995
January 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager