Yes, we certainly do agree, Rick.

I'm thinking that only a few opponents of ours are affected in a profound 
way by disease or disability.

I can understand to a certain extent their position because these 
microscopic cells are not nothing at all and could become under the right 
circumstances, a human being.  This will  not happen if they are   "left 
alone".

However, I doubt if it would be beneficial to  mankind if reproduction was 
totally unchecked.   Some of my women ancestors had as many as 20 children, 
died, and were replaced by wife #2.  It wasn't until the early 20th century 
that family size was down to 5 children.

And historically and biblically, I don't think even a fetus has been viewed 
as having the same status as a person.

I have a Mormon cousin who will not communicate with me.  She believes that 
souls are waiting for bodies and ESCR stops them.  I asked her how many 
children her church recommended she have and she said as many as they could 
afford.  Now that sounds wise to  me, but it  made  her realize she had 
practiced contraception whose purpose is to keep people from being born.  So 
she blamed me.

Her oldest son died at age 35 of cystic fibrosis and even so she opposes 
research that might someday cure CF.

I will always come down on the  side of living, suffering people for a  life 
of decent health.  I think this subject is suitable because it has to do 
with a  cure for PD.



-----Original Message----- 
From: Rick McGirr
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:03 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ESCR "EMBRYOS"

It's good to find that we agree on so much. Here's hoping, for the sake of
all
Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Rayilyn Brown
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 12:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ESCR "EMBRYOS"

The embryos  used for ESCR are not created for the  purpose of  medical
experimentation.  The whole process of IVF results in more than needed so
owners must either freeze them forever, trash them, or donate them to
science.  Many anti-abortionists also oppose IVF and contraceptives, as well

as  ESCR and even SCNT which involves as unfertilized egg and a somatic cell

like a skin cell.  I imagine they also oppose iPSCR as ESCs are necessary
for the research.  They are also behind  14th amendment personhood rights
for zygotes which if legal would ban contraceptives, IVF, ESCR, as well as
abortion.  A human cell is not a human person any more than a  corporation
is a  person or an acorn is an oak tree.

I do know that  Prentice falsely promoted Dennis Turner and several others
as ASC  Parkinson "cures" on his ASC cure list of varying numbers for
several years.  Also, Susan Fajit, a paraplegic.  I talked to Dennis twice
on  the phone when I could still talk.

I do not fear clones, science, or the government.   Without Medicare I could

not have afforded my 2 DBSs.   I do not believe that "just let them die" as
was recently applauded by a Republican debate audience is a good solution.
With a few exceptions, scientists have done a pretty good job of
contributing to the public good.


-----Original Message----- 
From: David McMurray
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 2:14 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Lets talk about ESC Mania!

Hi Rick;

You make a good point, one that I have embraced for at least half a century,
but to debate on which side has more idiots would not be appropriate here,
and I am commenting on the subject of ESCR at the invitation of Ray.

She has already discounted my response, i.e., Dr. Prentice and his testimony
before the Maryland House Committees, but I'd like to get specific and ask a
few questions, based on his testimony.  Keep in mind that I don't claim to
be an expert nor do I have any education or training in this science.  And
Ray, you obviously know more about him than I do.  But these questions will
be taken from his testimony before Congress.

1.  Does the science behind "somatic cell nuclear transfer" promote the use
of cloning technology to create human embryos for experiments?
2.  Is it true that almost all higher animals start their lives from a
single cell: the fertilized ovum. (zygote)?
3.  Do you agree that the National Academy of Sciences' definition of
"embryo" includes, "In medical terms, embryo usually refers to the
developing human from fertilization (the zygote stage)?....
4.  Is it true, as stated by Dr. Prentice, that "Both Reproductive and
Therapeutic cloning use exactly the same techniques to create the clone, and
the cloned embryos are indistinguishable?
5.  Is it true that "therapeutic cloning requires the creation of and
disaggregation ex utero of blastocyst stage embryos"?
6.  Is it true that "Unlike much stem cell research, which can use spare
embryos remaining from infertility procedures, CRNT (cell replacement
through nuclear transfer AKA "therapeutic cloning") requires the deliberate
creation and        disaggregation of a human embryo. (and this is,
evidently,  where the Ethics question begins).

So, the way I see it, and the reason abortion has been thrown into the mix,
Ray; those who have no problem with aborting "fetuses" will have no problem
with ESCR.

And Rick, I'd be careful of promoting an issue that has to rely on what is
done "for the greater public".  History cries out to us to learn from the
past, and not repeat the events that have been done under that guise.  The
problem was in who determined what was good.

In that regard, if Obama Care is fully implemented, seniors may very well be
individually scrutinized as to their viability.  Those decisions will also
be made considering "the public good".  If you don't believe it, there's
plenty on the web on both sides of the issue.  But for me, Obama Care is
going to adversely impact all seniors, particularly those in need of major
medical care.  (Such as ESC treatments)?

Regards,

Dave






-----Original Message----- 
From: Rick McGirr
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 12:33 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Lets talk about ESC Mania!

Hello, folks,

Ray, thanks for the invitation.

"....come on, his constituents don't take him seriously, why should you?"

My answer: because idiots vote.

Misinformation is one of the chief tools in any political contest. If enough
people are ill-informed, they will cause wrong-headed bills to bubble up to
the top of public discourse, like this poor, misguided buffoon in Oklahoma
has done. It's curious that this legislator has, himself, bubbled to the top
of Okla politics.

It's unfortunate that medical research has to sit on its hands while these
'chicken-licken's' slowly grasp what is actually happening. I think the best
prophylactic for misguided ideas is a good dousing with correct information
and up-to-date discussion focusing on reality, the scientific method, and
the good of the greater public, tenets of public discourse back when I was
attending public schools.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Rayilyn Brown
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 3:37 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Lets talk about ESC Mania!

Dave

thank you for bringing this up.    I assume you are someone who has concerns

about the ESC  issue and I would like to know what they are.  I think it is
past time we had an open discussion re this issue., especially since it
looks like ESCS are responsible for restoring sight to two women.  And now,
more than ever, the forces of opposition on the state level are mixing
abortion with  IVF, contraception and embryonic stem cell research.

Millions of lives depend upon the outcome of this struggle and I don't mean
aborted fetuses.

-----Original Message----- 
From: David McMurray
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ESC Mania!

Using this nut to throw a blanket over anyone who has concerns about the
stem cell issue is disingenuous, to say the least....come on, his
constituents don't take him seriously, why should you?

Dave

-----Original Message----- 
From: Meg Duggan
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ESC Mania!

OMG OMG OMG.  These people make me want to tear my hair out and set myself
on fire.







-----Original Message-----
From: Nic Marais <[log in to unmask]>
To: PARKINSN <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 3:27 am
Subject: ESC Mania!


Ray, this is what you're up against!!!
http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/2105-aborted-fetuses-food-oklahoma.html
And I thought we had problems with politicians here in SA...
Nic 59/17
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