Alastair,
I read your post regarding Ivan's message with great interest, but you made
some comments and came to some conclusions I think need to be examined or
challenged.  I'm not a MD., and I don't know enough about virus's to know if
they could be the pd cause, but I do know about agriculture, pesticide use
and exposure and water quality and safety.

You said<<< Ivan said>>> I ask or say****

<<<I  feel one should not accept that PD = lack of dopamine as a fact . IF
this
<<<connection is not true then it would explain the lack of progress in
<<<PD research  . Why are there no other diseases associated with other
<<<neurotransmitter deficiencies ? Why do other conditions produce PD
<<<symptoms ? Why do remedies like DBS and pallidotomy improve PD
<<<symtoms when boosting the dopamine levels with drugs such as
<<<nicotine do not ? WHY does it often only affect only half the brain
<<<(only one side ) ?


******Good questions, but are there no other diseases associated with
neurotransmitter deficiences?  What ******is the root cause of MS.  How does
physical trauma affect the neurotransmitters, and if it doesn't, whjy
******have so many pwp suffered head injeries at some time in their life.?
As far as affecting one side, most
******us are rt or left handed, wouldn't affecting the brain (even on both
sides) show a more marked affect on ******one side?

>         In recent weeks, Dr. Richard Palmiter of the University of
> Washington, working with Cell Genesys in California, has reported
> extraordinary and promising results in mice which were initially
> genetically engineered to have a DDD essentially equal to human
> Parkinson's Disease.  I talked with him on Wednesday. Some 20 out of 23
> of these mice in his laboratory have been returned to virually normal,
> after the introduction via injection of a virus produced at Cell Genesys,
> Inc. of California.

<<<<Great News  on the genetic malfunction cure possibilities but I dont
<<<<see any necessary dopamine connection .****THEN WHAT IS THE ROOT CAUSE,
AND WHAT IS CHANGING WITH THE TREATMENT?

******Who says that these cures only work on genetic malfunctions?  Is there
any research pro or con?
******Many virus's don't appear to care what genetics someone has, it
affects them equally HIV is a good ******example

>         I believe that it is quite possible that a VIRAL origin of human
> Parkinson's is likely for at least a significant proportion of DDD's
> worldwide.
<<I agree entirely with this statement . MY PD history . Flu produced
<<ME symptoms slowly got better over years but developed stiff back .
<<Another flu and I developed the rest of my PD symptoms  .

>       Consider a few interesting facts:
>
>      (1)  The well-known post-swine flu encephalitis of the early part of
> this century caused innumerable cases of "Parkinson's Disease" to
> develop.  These were memorialized by Dr. Oliver Sachs, in his book,
> Awakenings. The movie, "Awakenings," forever and indelibly imprinted in
> our memories by screen stars Robert  De Niro and Robin Williams, recalls
> the early use of L-dopa to cause movement and communication in "frozen"
> hospital patients.  The key point is that these people had been exposed
> to a devastating virus.
<Actually they only supposed that it was a virus because of the flu
<like qualities of the disease they have never seenor identified the
<virus . I have posted a recent similar casewhere the condition was
<cured using high doses of methylprednisolone ( an antiinflamatory
<cortico steroid ).  ( see archives for details under " Q.E.D. " )

****The news today listed that they had found and indentified the virus
which caused this.  Samples were ****obtained from a man buried in the
Alaskan tundra

>       (2)  It is very well known that amantadine, actually an ANTI-VIRAL
> drug, reduces tremor in PWP's (people with Parkinson's). Antibiotic drugs
> have also been reported to quell the symptoms of PWP's.
>
>       (3) Horses in, I believe, Germany, develop an equine variety of DDD
> after exposure to the Bern virus. I believe this report was released in
> 1998.
>
>       (4) Taiwanese women with Parkinson's are mentioned to be,
> interestingly, post- herpes viral victims.
>
>      (5)  I also believe that recently there has been work to show that
> Multiple Sclerosis can be attributed to the Herpes virus number 6.
>
>      (6)  I read in the New York Times about four years ago of a young
> boy whose Duchenne's Muscular Dystrophy was being treated with
> genetically-engineered dystrophin, a man-made protein predicted to
> restore normal movement to that patient.

<  You forgot GM1 ganglioside .( see archives for details ) This is an
<acticide  which has been shown to have very positive effects on PD .
I <tried to order some from a company that was advertizing the product
<on the net . I was told that the product was no longer being produced
!!!
>
>        These 4 pieces of important evidence ( 1 - 4 above), and 2
> observations about related neuromotor disorders ( 5 and 6 above) can all
> be used  as CLUES in support of the idea of a VIRAL origin for human
> Parkinson's Disease.  Identification of this PD virus, much like the
> current battle against the Ebola Virus, and also in light of the last 15
> years of worldwide, coordinated research to contain the Human
> Immunodeficiency Virus, should take top priority in virology and public
> health.
>

>        In epidemiology, we recently have seen the intriguing paper by Dr.
> Tanner  of California.  She claims that 90% of the PD cases are due to a
> toxic event.  I am not so sure that her paper presents any unassailable
> evidence of toxic exposure. A viral origin for DDD's might also
> meanwahile explain her PD evidence on twins.  Twins, whether identical,
> fraternal or sororital, if sharing the same bedroom, could come into
> contact witha PD-causing virus with greater frequency than siblings of
> different ages.
****As much as I enjoyed Ivan's post, I think this is reaching to assume
twins would somehow be more ****exposed to a virus, than single children in
the same household.

>       Let us for the moment assume that ALL DDD cases are due to either
> viral exposure or to other causes capable of breaking up and rearranging
> the normal amno acid sequence of either DNA, or the messenger RNA
> templates that ultimately produce DNA.

<<<<  A very reasonable assumption .
*****A very reasonable hypothysis - and that is different.  I can go as far
as seeing the messenger RNA becoming rearranged and thus changing some
results, but I don't see many DNA strands being rearranged without causing
death

>       This assumption would give us a conceptual framework to understand
> virtually all case of "Parkinson's Disease," no matter what the cause.
> This framework strongly points towards viruses.

<<<<<<<<It has been shown that people drinking well water have a higher
chance of PD than city people . I am surrounded by intensively
sprayed agricultural fields ******Sorry, this is where I jump in with both
feet.  You live in the middle of farming country - what is being sprayed and
in what doses?  Under the law, you have to be notified before the area close
to you is treated.  Most farmers are at or below break even costs - one of
the most expensive, and most likely to not be used is the sprays. <<<<< . I
believe my spring water is heavily
poluted with pesticides and herbicides .******** Based on what?  A good
feeling?  If you know even what catagory of spray has been used in your
area, your water can be tested for a minimum of cost.  Also, most states
have a regulatory agency which will investigate pesticide complaints and
will test the water for you if there is a reasonalbe chance the water is
contaminated.   Other factors which come in play include your soil type and
the amt of clay, depth of the well, depth of the water table,  amount of
rainfall in your area and a whole host  of other related issues which all
effect the speed pesticides move through the soil and into the water table.
Types of pesticides and concentration levels also determine the amt of
damage which could be cause to the human body exposed to it. <<<<< It is
probably the
combination of the virus with this polution that scrambles the DNA
****?????Where did this come from?// A virus which hasn't been identified,
and a pollution which may or may not be present?.
<<<<<<A few years ago there was a virus that was killing the seals around
<<<<<<the coasts of UK . Iseem to remember reading that it was worse in
<<<<<<areas of the sea with higher pollution . I think that the conceptual
<<<<<<framework should should have viruses as the main cause but with a
<<<<<<strong suuporting role of toxic chemicals . The latter in some cases
<<<<<<takes the leading role . ( CO and drug poisoning )
******I love the scientific basis of this previous statement.  Let's take
the easy first - CO2 is carbon dioxide, and is a natural part of the air.
Yes, in too high of doses it is dangerous but how does that relate to
killing seals? I would expect animals in a polluted environment to have a
higher death rate than animals in a "clean" environment.  Polluted
environments won't have the same forage base, and the animals will be weaker
before the onset of the virus.  Where is the connection between this and pd?

>        Now, a few thoughts on the "cure" for Parkinson's Disease.  Dr.
> Palmiter's mice are injected with a man-made virus created at Cell
> Genesys, a virus that takes over the animals' mRNA templates for the DNA
> that codes for the enzyme tyrosine dehydroxylase.  This injection causes
> the correct DNA sequence to be re-laid, so that dopamine is produced, and
> amazingly, the genetically-sick mice LOSE ALL SIGNS of Parkinson's
> Disease, except some slowness of movement in some of the mice.

<Is there any evidence that the relaid DNA sequence directly produces
<more dopamine  ?. My view is that the brain produces the dopamine it
<needs . PD is an abnormal neuron firing pattern that requires less
<dopamine and so the dopamine producing cells atrophy ( die off from
<non use ) .
*****Is there any evidence to support this hypothysis either?  What makes
one more likely than the other, and if the brain is causing increased neuron
firing, why isn't it picked up in the tests....someone help....the test
where they stick needles in you and measure the electrical current.  I know
it didn't show any abnormality when I had it, and I was in a full blown, leg
shaking, bouncing off the table attack at the same time.

>     By taking such hopeful steps, we can enter what Judith Richards calls
> a new "era."  And step forward we must , so that we not only talk about,
> but are participants in, a planetary effot  to END Parkinson's DIsease.
> Only then, will the coming of the millenium seem truly meaningful to me.

<Sorry cant see any new era . There will only be a new era  when PWPs
<take power for themselves and dont rely on others to find a cure for
<them .*******Again, the sound is good, but the science is weak.  Are you
talking about doing direct research, *and if so, with what funds, what labs,
where is the starting point if we are starting over.  I think that the more
*publicity pd recieves, as well as increased dialog between researchers will
lead to the new era Ivan was *talking about.
<THere was an interesting article in the " New Scientist " about how
<the anti malarial quinine was discovered . The article concluded that
<the only way  was that the amazon natives must have just tried
<everything . How often did they die of poisoning in this search ?
<The latest antimalarial drug was developed from studying ancient
<chinease medecine . Again derived from information obtained from sick
<people taking medicine on a try it and see basis .
****I can't agree that doing blind experiments on people, even yourself, is
a way to find a cure for anything.
<I have for the last year or so been taking all sorts of things to
<see what works . My investigations have been seriously hampered by
<the government/medical establishment which does not allow this
<activity . I am researching methylprednislone and human growth
<hormone in low doses .( I had to go to Mexico to get around these
<control freaks ).*******These are the same control freaks who are allowing
those terrible farmers spray all those toxic poisons in your well?  Current
costs to test 1 pesticide on 1 crop only starts around $10,000,000.00  Each
additional crop or target pest costs about $5,000,000.00  This means that
ant spray which says will kill ants in the yard, the garden and the garage
probably cost around 10 million dollars to develoop and get approved.
  <I was hoping that this list would be a forum for exchange of
<<information on PD *****IT HAS BEEN FOR ME****. This would be far more
effective research than
<<done by the medico/government complex . ****AGAIN, I HAVE TO ASK WHERE OR
HOW ARE YOU COMING UP WITH THIS CONCLUSION?****I have had to read countless
<<wingeing about the non spending by the goverment ( delete all the
<<obvious ones but some getthrough from bad subject heading ) .  The
<<gay community( good for them ) managed to get effective funding for HIV
research by
<<being a public nuisance . they were helped by the fact that HIV is a
<<very new problem and there were  no entrenched ideas/ people ******IF I'M
NOT MISTAKEN, EVEN AFTER THE GAY COMMUNITY BEGAN TO PUBLIZE THE DANGERS OF
AIDS, NO ONE GOT REAL EXCITED UNTIL IT BEGAN TO BE IDENTIFIED IN THE
HETEROSEXUAL COMMUNITY.  THAT DOESN'T SAY MUCH FOR THE GOVERNMENT EITHER,
BUT IT IS MORE ACCURTATE**. How do
<<you get an expert in position of power to agree to to research that
<<will prove that what he has been saying for the last 30 years is
<<wrong and that he got a very fat salary for misleading people ? What
<<if this expert is part of a gang in positions of power ?
   A PWPs approach togetting reseach done will be one of the
following .
    1)  do it himself on a suck it and see policy***I HOPE THIS WAS
SARCASUM, BUT IN LIGHT OF YOUR ABOVE REFERENCES TO LEAVING THE COUNTRY TO
TRY NEW TREATMENTS, I'M NOT SURE
     2) organise public nuisances with other PWPs to force the
government to do something . Sending letters is a complete waste of
time as it makes the recipient think he is important . Camping
outside his front door will be more effective than any number of well
reasoned letters .***IT WILL GET HIS ATTENTION, BUT WILL IT BE A PRODUCTIVE
DIALOG WHICH RESULTS?
   3)wait for a private company to do the researchand find a cure .
The problem is that they will charge a high price which you may not
be able afford . People in the UK are being denied treament because
of the high cost .
    My research  priority it researching the possibility that my PD is
caused by a viralbrain inflammation that can be treated by anti
inflammatory drugs .
     peace
          Alastair     ( [log in to unmask] )
*****A few more comments about toxins and pesticides and I'll quit.
Everyone knows DDT caused weaken egg shells, right?  No, there was NO
conclusive evidence on this.  However, it did make one hell of a good story
in the media, and it sounds great.  ALLAR (sp) was found in toxic doses on
apples - Nope, allar on Washington apples was at below safety standards, but
it did sound great.  Let's put some more people out of farming.  US Food is
the safest and most tested in the world.  Recent outbreaks of tainted meat
were nearly all contaminated during processing or shipping, not in the
feedlot or because sick animals were slaughtered.  If a farmer or rancher
sells an unsafe product, he knows odds are good it will come back to him.
Most of these people eat the same items they sell, only they use the ugly
looking ones because we, the consumer, want our food to "look" good.  Your
generalities are disturbing and unfair.  I've spent my life trying to help
farmer's and rancher's be able to continue a way of life they love, and all
to often, if you put an economist's pencil to their operation, they would be
much wealthier to sell out and invest in T-bills.  I will be the first to
admit that there have been some excesses, and I will also admit there will
be a pesticide mis-use somewhere tomorrow - but odds are great it will be a
homeowner and not a farmer.  A new buzz word in the environmental circles
now is nitrate poisoning - sounds bad, caused by nitrogen - must be from
farmers - but everytime it rains north of me, I get the front yard
fertilizer applications from the Dallas area headed my way.  Farmers can't
afford to waste money on extra sprayings or fertilizer, so they don't.
Numerous homeowner's I assist readily tell me they didn't measure the area
treated, they just used the sack up so they wouldn't have to store it.
Bob [log in to unmask]