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Thanks Janet for saying exactly what I wanted to say. I would add that what bothers me about the other side of this discussion is a seemingly unwillingness to understand that those, as I am, ( not knowing what feeling happy/joy was ) do understand that they feel cured. It isn't about who is right or who is wrong, it is to validate that I , among others, know that we are not cured of cd only coping with an awareness of its seriousness. I do not believe that anyone said that we do not eat properly or realize that positive ideas and being involved in outside events are valuable.. It is that we can only know the importance of involvement or positive thinking. We do not have the energy to do it. Somehow the idea has been overlooked that some cd people have always been depressed, entirely unaware that they see the world differently than others do. And if they do, what can they do about it? How can anyone understand *happines or joy* if they are only words with little meaning or power to change anything. This is not a choice, this is a condition just as much as pd is one. If any 10 step program works then use it . It is important to understand that it could be a crutch, but that is where therapy helps. If one gives over ones mental health to a higher power then that becomes their way to cope. How about the rest of us though, who are strong I believe, realizing that at some point we are alone fighting the destructive power cd has over us? It is not by accident that many who are cd also are dependent on drugs and or alcohol or some other substance. Charlie probably knows the incidence of this, and if he has treated anyone who is cd, most likely asked very early if they used alcohol or drugs to feel better. I hardly equate a critical need to take low dose antidepressant as being weak; far beit, it is a sign of recognition and strength. *seattle* audrey non pwp but a loyal friend to a few pwp on the list and especially to pwp aussie John 49/42/38