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barb this indeed is a great reply the word rants gives a clue to the personality, however cd she is the whole discussion though was productive and useful seems to be *mostly* without rancourand enables people to air views and opinions suicide is a very personal thing and individuals make decisions based on the perspectives, fears, circumstances and other things i didnt know paige but respect her right to commit suicide or to spend her days fighting pd thanks for your post it was valued and valuable judy >From: Barb_MSN <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network ><[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: janet's rants on clinical depression (cd) and suicide >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 01:22:22 -0700 > >Janet.... > >With all due respect for the apparent agony you're >feeling at the death of your friend, Paige, I feel >impelled to write this to you. I apologize for it's >length - but wrote till I ran out of words. > >The terrible sadness and pain, the sense of loss, and >the great void Paige's death - her self-destruction - >caused in your life seems to haunt you, causing you to >feel a strong need to keep bringing up this loss >long after everyone else on this tiny corner >of Cyberspace who cared for Paige let her rest in >the peace she surely didn't have in life. > >MOST folks logging onto the Parkinson's List didn't >know your friend Paige, yet ALL were polite and >thoughtful in letting you and others who cared for >Paige carry your public grief to it's natural end some >weeks after Paige died. > >At that time you posted your feelings of pain in your >poetry in our public forum. Once again you also shared >your thoughts and feelings with us all about clinical >and general depression. You shared your feelings >about taking one's own life - suicide. And no one said >"please stop already," > >At that time there was extensive public email about >clinical depression and suicide. Those who didn't >want to have a public conversation on those two topics >pretty much kept THAT to themselves or in PRIVATE >email so as not to cause you further pain by seeming not >to care about your painful loss (when indeed most >of us care and deeply about you). > >When I logged on just now I was saddened to see that >you'd reposted your poetry - your RANTS as you >called them - and seem to continue feeling a need to >drag the sad ghost of Paige once again from her >earthly grave and after moaning and groaning, beating >yout breast (virtually), and calling not only OUR attention >but OTHER folks on OTHER Lists attention to YOUR loss, >DEMANDING that we all must be clinically depressed >and thinking about suicide if we live with chronic >disease. > >Well old Cyber-friend of mine... old Cyber-friend of OURS... >I_ say, enough's enough! LET GO OF PAIGE. Let her >TRULY "rest in peace." PAIGE IS DEAD, and SHE >chose the time, the day. and the place SHE wanted to >leave THIS world for another. > >By continuing to drag this into the open, week after >week, you're exhibiting a painful craving for attention >for JANET - NOT for PAIGE. > >I urge you again, Janet - LET GO OF PAIGE. > >The following is said by me only. It's my opinion >based upon "knowing" and respectign Janet for >about 6 years on a near daily basis via written >List-exchanges. So Janet, don't think that this is >some kind of group "thing" coming down on you. >It's MY feelings I'm expressing. > >If anyone else wants to discuss my comments or Janet's, >please let's keep it in private email so no public offense >will take place inadvertently. > >I think you might need to see a professional counselor >about your feelings about GROUP clinical depression, >and why you personally hold that topic so dear, when >most other folks, if and/or when they realize THEY are >having a serious bout of depression WANT to get >over it - if possible... and to STOP it from becoming >an ongoing clinical condition --- if possible. > >Janet - the Parkinson's List is FOR people who >have or in some way LIVE or KNOW someone >with PARKINSON'S DISEASE and all that comes >from living with PD. It's not the "CHRONIC clinical >depression List" or the "Chronic-thinking-about-suicide- >List," and I venture MOST folks on the PD List would >prefer not to seemingly -- REPEATEDLY, >*CHRONICLY*-- find those two topics shoved down >their throats on a regular basis. > >One last thing, Janet.... It took a lot for me to get >involved in this kind of commentary at this time. I've got >my own personal hob-goblins to deal with now and I'm >functioning mostly on sheer will power.. I'd MUCH >prefer not to act like 2 cats fighting over the still-warm >body of a dead mouse after you receive this message. > >With caring friendship for you and respect for your loss.... > >Barb Mallut >[log in to unmask] > >--Original Message----- >From: Janet Paterson <[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> >Date: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 10:30 PM >Subject: janet's rants on clinical depression (cd) and suicide > > > >cross-posted to the park place and to the parkinson forum at mgh: > > > > > >janet's rants on clinical depression (cd) and suicide > > > > > >i am a member of the 'big' pd mailing list > >and participated in cyber-discussions about > >the pan forum and the glad and sad news presented > >there. the news about paige broke my heart and > >produced the following bits of 'rants' of mine > >in the subsequent cyber-discussions. > > > >for whatever it may be worth, > >all of my messages to the pd list > >are on the wwweb at my wwwebsite > >"http://www.geocities.com/janet313/" > > > >we are all cyber-siblings when it comes to pd > >and that goes double for cd > > > >with love > > > >janet paterson > > > >"[log in to unmask]" > > > > > >-----jant rant part >one---------------------------------------------- > > > >might i present a theorem of cause and effect: > > > >IF: > >1. suicide is virtually always 'caused' by cd > >AND: > >2. cd is totally absolutely CURABLE with treatment > >AND: > >3. cd is the most common of ALL 'disabilities' world wide > >THEN: > >4. cd is the most under-diagnosed and under-treated 'disability' >world wide > >AND: > >5. suicide is a leading and growing cause of death among young >adults > >HUH? > > > >something is sadly and tragically wrong with this 'theorem' >picture > > > >why? > > > >because of the > >toxic shame still attached > >[which we as a society still attach] > >to 'emotional weakness' or 'mental disorders' > > > >we parkies, of all people, > >who know first-hand and in-our-face > >what havoc a little 'glitch' in our brain chemistry can cause, > >are no less caught up in that toxic-shame/keep-it-hidden cycle > >when it comes to the 50% of us > >who deal with cd too > > > >maybe some of us did 'miss' paige's pain, > >but my guess is that she also made a great effort to hide it, > >due to our mutual and societal collective brain-washing-staining > > > >quick survey: > >how did you all feel when i mentioned 'tears' earlier today > >in response to the news about paige? > >should i have 'kept it quiet'? > >'not made a fuss'? > >or what? > > > >-----jant rant part >two----------------------------------------------- > > > >if only ... > >i might have ... > >maybe we should've ... > > > >i have heard of too many pd-related suicides > >it's giving pd a bad name > > > >as a veteran of 12 years of pd [as diagnosed] > >and 10 years of cd [as diagnosed] > >i tend to think that cd is the more insidious > > > >at least with pd and sinemet > >there's a little relief in the symptoms > >good hard evidence of a little light at the end of the tunnel now >and again > > > >with cd my thinking becomes so negative, > >that i can't imagine any other way or time or being; > >i can't imagine anything; i can barely think at all > > > >being a parkie doesn't mean i can't be perky at the same time > > > >being in cd can make me feel worse than > >if i had ms, pd, als, psp, and msa combined > >and [this is the real kicker] > >even if i had none of the above > > > >cd sucks the joy and the possibility > >out of every single aspect and moment of life > > > >cd causes 'paralysis of will' which imho is profoundly > >more debilitating than pd > > > >cd distorts and twists ordinary thinking patterns > >into downward spiraling and self perptuating > >doom and gloom prophesies > >[which are way beyond the reach of any ideas about 'bootstraps'] > >viz my little attempt at a scriptlette: > >[help me out here, carole, huh?] > > > >"research? it'll be a cold day in hell ..." > >"mjf? he's just in it for the sympathy ..." > >"hope? are you nuts?" "they are all blowing hot air" > >"forum? what's the use .. the nih is just a cash hog" > >"no, i just can't bear the idea of having to see a shrink" > >"there's never going to be a cure ... don't waste my time" > >"i'll never figure out this dsse form ... i can't concentrate ... > >bernie is crazy if he thinks i'm going to spend all day filling >in all this > >stuff" ... > >"i will never get any better - it's hopeless" > >"no, i don't want to talk to anyone, take a message" > >"so what if i haven't been out of the house in a month ... > >there's nothing out there i haven't seen before ... i don't want >to go out" > >"i can't stop wanting to cry ... what a fool i am ..." > >"the men in the white coats are going to come get me if i let >on..." > >"this new med will never work so there's no point in trying >it..." > >"maybe i'll get out of bed tomorrow, i can't face anything >today..." > >"... i forgot my meds again, what's the point ... " > >"why can't i get myself out of this? i must be losing my mind ... >" > >"this pain is unbearable already and it keeps getting worse ..." > >"all my friends have deserted me... they can't stand me anymore >..." > >"... i can't stand me anymore ..." > > > >and on and on ad nauseum > >and eventually to utter despair > >and ultimately maybe to suicide > > > >we are hoping against hope for a cure for pd > >imagine having a cure for it right now > >maybe even for the past five years > >and hardly anyone is taking it > >because of toxic shame > >and society stereotypically saying > >there's nothing wrong with you that a little willpower won't fix > > > >boggles the mind... > > > >-----jant rant part >three--------------------------------------------- > > > >i also have no intention or desire > >to cause pain or embarrassment to paige's loved ones > >or to diminish our respect for paige's memory in any way > > > >this is such an important issue > >every time we lose another soul to suicide > >i feel it more and more deeply > > > >i have been looking at paige's website and other web-pages again > >[thank you murray for your magnificent digging [!]] > > > >imho > >the person who wrote those words was not in depression, period. > >no one mired in cd could express even one percent of that energy. > >the spark that jumps out of her words is from her unfettered and >joyous > >spirit. > > > >i can remember while mired in cd > >not being 'able' to read some of my own posts > >because they 'made my eyes hurt' > > > >the joy > >[or the memory of the joy] > >[or the reminder of the loss of that joy] > >in them was too much to bear > > > >so i must make an assumption that somewhere somehow paige > >hit a major bump in her path which changed her thinking processes > >and enabled the dreaded cd downward spiral to take over > > > >bernie's note tends to confirm my assumption > >but for the sake of clarity in digging out the true 'cause' of >this tragic > >'effect' > >i would suggest that your words might need a tad bit of >correction: > > > >>Depression, along with PD, and some other physical > >>issues, all contributed to her impulsive act ... > > > >imho, the physical issues do not 'cause' suicide > >viz: christopher reeve and stephen hawking are still stirring up >'trouble' > > > >the 'physical issues' may 'make us feel' a certain way >physically, > >but they do not 'make us feel' any particular way emotionally or > >intellectually > > > >the way we think about things, > >the way we perceive the world we think we live in, creates our >emotions > > > >in most cases we have a choice of > >how we perceive and thus how we think and thus how we feel > > > >[which is what my wysiwyg times three pome is all about] > > > >which can be one heck of a concept to wrap one's brain around > > > >i've been working on it for a few years now > >and i think i'm starting to 'get it' > > > >any old timers here will testify to the fact > >that i've been harping on the subject of "perceptions" since july >1997 > > > >why do i know the date and the timing so well? > >that's when i got the gumption to 'go public' again > >after my cd fog lifted and the world i had previously known > >[the world that i had almost forgotten had ever existed] > >came back into my viewfinder > > > >maybe i'm splitting hairs here, bernie, > >but i think i will feel compelled to keep splitting any that i >come across > >until this 'most common disability world wide' > >which is also the 'most under-diagnosed' one and > >which has the most tragic and totally needless final symptom as >its > >'effect' > >is not only wrassled to the ground > >but is stomped all over and > >defeated into the dust > > > >one further clarification > >awhile back up the page i said: > > > >>in most cases we have a choice of > >>how we perceive and thus how we think and thus how we feel > > > >the unique and dastardly thing about cd is that it robs us of >that choice > >it is not a physical disability like blindness or paralysis > >but a measurable bio-physio-chemical change > >in the chemical balance in a specific part of the brain > > > >the causes of the said imbalance can be all sorts of things: > >heredity, emotional trauma, pharmacological, physical, etc. etc > > > >maybe my 'getting' the concept of even *having* a choice > >in how i perceive things, in how i respond emotionally to my >world, > >was that much more of a shock to me since, at the time, > >i was in the process of scraping away the cd muck > >and could barely comprehend the idea of > >feeling any emotions anyway > >let alone having > >control of > >them > > > >so this is jant's rant's summary for today: > > > >1. physical disabilities do not cause cd > >2. cd is caused by a brain chemistry change > >3. which is reversible and curable > >3.a. but > >4. which change manifests itself in expression of negative >emotions > >5. which are considered "no-go" territory in our society > >5.a. why? you tell me ... > >6. which results in cd wrassling too many of us to the ground >instead of > >the reverse > > > >janet > >so grateful to be here and now > > > >================================================================= >===== > > > >janet paterson > >53 now / 41 dx pd / 37 onset pd / 44 dx cd / 43 onset cd > >tel: 613 256 8340 url: "http://www.geocities.com/janet313/" > >email: "[log in to unmask]" smail: PO Box 171 Almonte Ontario >K0A 1A0 Canada ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com