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> > >Nope, Charlie, wrong logic. I do not have a problem with miscarriages >or failures to implant, since those are not due to the *direct* causation >of the putative parent. There is a big difference between someone >who, for example, dies as a result of a spontaneously-contracted >infection than when someone dies as a result of germ warfare. Bob My point is about the humanity of all embryos regardless of whether they die spontaneously or are killed you think they are human just the same. I submit that that if the embryo or preembryo dies- that by your logic is the loss of a human being and should be seen as a death. I agree that it would be more horrific if a person dies as the result of germ warfare than a spontaneously contracted infection but it is a loss of a person(with your logic) nevertheless and I don't see any campaigns to prevent theses "deaths". I presume the reason for this is that most people are do differentiate between the death of a person and the death of an embryo. How many funerals do you see for embryos? Your logic says that we should not regard the loss of both equally that those "persons" killed by their mothers are somehow more valuable than those lost by natural means. After aren't all lives equally valuable. > >>To say it is only a small step from abortion to >the atrocities committed by the Nazi's is ludicrous<< > >You missed the point again, Charlie. I *do* believe that unrestricted >abortion leads to the cheapening of life, but that is not a "small step" >to Nazism. It is a fairly "large step" and we haven't gotten near to that >yet; but there is a potential for such. At least with abortion, we can >assume (at least I hope so) that the pregnancy was not intended so >that it could be killed. It is a large step only if you accept the notion that it is a human being that is being killed. I don't believe that rigid position is possible. It is a religious precept as to when life begins. If one wanted to he could assert that pre life was sacred and no egg should go unfertilized since it was potential life.who could grow up to be , Bob Fink, Charlie Meyer or Hitler, I think that position is as supportable as yours. It becomes a matter of religious faith and belief. In this multi cultural society how someone can presume to inflict their beliefs on others in the most personal of situations is beyond me. It is like saying that because you don't believe as I do that you are going to Hell but I will purify you by converting you or maybe by burning you at the stake- after all isn't that the caring thing to do. A few minutes of pain for an eternity with God. What a deal !! That is the real threat of Nazism- the subversion of the right and responsibility for a person to make his or her own choices in the matters that most relevant to him or her. One may choose to follow the precepts of an established faith or code of ethics or be totally amoral, or immoral but it has to be their call. I have sympathy for those who believe abortion is murder but please don't make the same mistake as the inquisitors did and force others to conform to your ideas of morality. >While I have some reservations about using "leftover" embryos for >"experimentation", it does not disturb me as much as the situations >where people *start a pregnancy* for the express purpose of >"growing transplant material". That to me is abhorrent. > Just like using >abortion as "birth control" because contraceptives are "inconvenient". Agreed!! >>Let us continue to work toward funding of stem >cell research and put aside these fundamental differences for another >day.<< > >I will accept the funding of stem research *only* when there are >proper safeguards in place to prevent what it is which I oppose. I have >tried to be clear on that. > Bob ., as has been writen by others the NIH guidelines are in place and > I think your objections are taken into account. > >Best, > >Bob > > > >********************************************** >Robert A. Fink, M. D., F.A.C.S., P. C. >2500 Milvia Street Suite 222 >Berkeley, California 94704-2636 >Telephone: 510-849-2555 FAX: 510-849-2557 >WWW: http://www.dovecom.com/rafink/ > >mailto:[log in to unmask] > >"Ex Tristitia Virtus" > >********************************************* Charles T. Meyer, M.D. Middleton, WI PD DX 12 years (at age 44) Age 56