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Hi Ivan - you have given my brain a good teaser this morning. I read your report about your dad spraying the roses, and it reminded me of a home visit I made about 12 yrs ago. I had a client call my office and tell me the varieties of vegetables and fruit I had recommended were no good, because he had nothing bearing fruit. When I went to his house, his garden was beautiful - huge plants, beautiful leaves, and no fruit at all... As I walked through the garden, I noticed there were no insects flying at all - and no signs of insects on any leaves, etc. I asked him what he had sprayed, and he told me dursban - but I had found others who mixed pesticides wrong etc., so I asked to see the can - he pulled out a red and white container, that was over 20 yrs old, and did NOT contain dursban, diazinon etc. I have been wracking my brain all morning trying to remember what the product was - it was a white powder, very dangerous, but extremely effective insecticide. I went to my files to try to kick start my memory, and pulled some old (OLD) gov't publications out - the one from1948 recommended spraying orchards with DDT, lead arsenate, and ethylene dichloride. The suburban gardening guide from 1967 said to call your county agent .... and I still can't remember the insecticide name I am trying to think of. It was used for termite control until the 80's, but it had to be buried in the soil because it had a half life of 30 yrs....maybe someone else can come up with a name. If I do remember the name, I will pass it on to you off list. bob aka tex