abigail--
I quite agree with you; indeed, this is pretty much the argument
that I make in my first chapter, "The Theatrum and the Rhetoric of Abuse."
Innocent did not label liturgical representationes as ludi like those of
the ancient theatre; rather, he labelled riotous incursions as ludi
of the theatrum. My objection to "stage plays" as a translation of ludi
theatrales is that modern readers think of "stage plays" as dramas;
we do not normally think that "stage plays" means games of the ancient
theatrum.
Larry
On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Abigail Ann Young wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Lawrence M. Clopper wrote:
>
> > My note was in regard to the second item in Andrzej's original
> > note: the letter from Innocent III (1207) that is quoted at the end of
> > this e-mail. The letter was partially quoted in the Decretals of Gregory
> > IX, 3.1.12 (Corpus iuriis canonici; Friedberg 2.452): Interdum ludi . . .
> > theatrales. Ludi theatrales continues to be translated as "stage plays"
> > despite the fact that both Chambers and Young insisted that liturgical
> > pieces are not the object of the prohibition. The letter and the decretal
> > refers to the raukous games of the lower clergy, esp. around Christmas:
> > boy bishops, feast of fools and the like. The canonist Bernardo Bottone
> > makes this quite clear in his gloss, Cum decorem, which was standard. He
> > says that Innocent is not referring representationes of the Nativity,
> > Rachel, etc. because these encourage men to worship and devotion.
>
> I am not quite sure why we should refrain from translating 'ludi
> theatrales' as 'stage plays' because the decretalists make it clear
> that what is being referred to by that phrase is the seasonal misrule
> of the minor clergy (often called 'ludi inhonesti' in canonical
> literature) rather than 'repraesentationes', which appears to be their
> term for at least some of what we call 'liturgical drama'. I am not
> sure I can think of a better way to translate 'ludi theatrales' than
> 'stage plays' -- I think part of the point here (as with the use of
> 'spectacula' ('shows', a term used in antiquity to refer to the
> gladiatorial shows) in canonical prohibitions) is to make an implicit
> comparison between the contemporary thing being prohibited and an
> ancient, and hence pagan, practice. By calling these things 'ludi
> theatrales' the canonist reminds us of the nasty practices of the
> ancient theatre (as they were then conceived). It's a lot like the
> tendency of twelfth and thirteenth century theologians to call any
> contemporary heretic an Arian or Sabellian -- by invoking the ancient
> error, which no-one wants to be seen as defending, they automatically
> force the object of their disagreement into a defensive role with one
> strike against them.
>
> Abigail
>
> Abigail Ann Young (Dr), Associate Editor/ Records of Early English Drama/
> Victoria College/ 150 Charles Street W/ Toronto Ontario Canada
> Phone (416) 585-4504/ FAX (416) 813-4093/ [log in to unmask]
> List-owner of REED-L <http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed-l.html>
> http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed.html => REED's home page
> http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/stage.html => our theatre resource page
> http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~young => my home page
>
>
