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Following up on Pam King's comments: Another point about liturgical drama and civic drama: the persons adapting/composing the liturgical music dramas would have been an entirely different set than those who might have been involved with assisting the civic authorities with playtexts for their pageants. And perhaps we need to recognize that not all "churchmen" can be put together in a single group. We have parish clergy, various orders of friars (including the York Augustinians), cathedral clergy, and --though less likely -- Benedictines. If the Bodley Christ's Burial and Christ's Resurrection were found to be civic plays (about which, to be sure, I would be quite sceptical), we could even add the Carthusians. An examination of this kind would make the disjunct between liturgical drama and civic drama even sharper. Cliff Davidson On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, B.H.Sadler wrote: > Thanks, Meg, but I'm not so busy as to be un-fascinated by this debate over > ideas which I believed had a decent burial some years past. > Two questions:- > What kind of transmission mechanism is conjectured by those who persist in > believing that Latin drama, entirely the preserve of collegiate > ecclesiastical communities, wandered into the streets, becoming the > property of a compeletly different social constituency, and in a completely > different language? > Equally, can mystery plays be tru;ly 'biblical' when no-one within the > civic structure of the cities from which they emanate had access to a whole > Bible? > Clearly churchmen were involved in the writing of the mystery play texts > which we have (though one should be scrupulous about eliding all the > surviving cycle drama as if it were the same; it isn't). Equally clearly > plays on biblical subjects performed on behalf of, by, and for the secular > populace drew on their experience of the Bible, most of which came to them > through the experience of worship and was, therefore, liturgical. This has, > however, no demonstrable connection I know of to so-called 'liturgical > drama'. > But finally one other question:- > Is there one other thriving field of scholarship in literature and drama in > which work published fifty years ago and more is still being uncritically > promulgated as canonical? > Pamela King > > > At 03:28 PM 10/19/01 +0100, you wrote: > >And 'developed from the church liturgy' doesn't mean the same as 'liturgical > >plays got up and walked out of the church into the marketplace'. Ask > Pamela M. > >King who is engaged in a major study on this. (But don't ask her at this > >precise moment, she's rather busy running Cumbria.) Meg T. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Clifford Davidson [SMTP:[log in to unmask]] > >> Sent: 19 October 2001 14:35 > >> To: [log in to unmask] > >> Subject: Re: [Fwd: 12c drama] > >> > >> But still identifying the Towneley plays as "Wakefield plays," which seem > >> misleading in the light of recent research such as Barbara Palmer's which > >> identify the collection as a set of plays from the West Riding. > >> > >> Some of these things are as hard to eradicate as the popular idea that > >> Columbus > >> was the one who discovered the world was not flat. > >> > >> Clifford Davidson > >> > >> Abigail Ann Young wrote: > >> > >> > > Suzanne S Webb wrote: > >> > > > >> > > As a long-time textbook author (though in a different field), I know > that > >> > > the best way to get things changed is to get in touch with the > >> > > developmental editor for the publishers of the big Brit Lit anthologies > >> > > like Norton and complain, complain, complain and threaten to drop an > >> > > adoption. > >> > > > >> > > The intro to the 2nd Play of the Shepherds in the Longman anthology > >> > > (which is the one I use for this very reason) is not as offensive as > the > >> > > one in Norton. It says in the general intro to medieval lit, "The > >> > > fifteenth century sees the flowering of the great dramatic "mystery > >> > > cycles," sets of plays on religious themes produced and in part > performed > >> > > by craft guilds of larger towns in the Midlands and North. Included > here > >> > > is a brilliant sample, the Second Play of the Shepherds from the > >> > > Wakefield Plays. Probably written by clerics, these plays are > nonetheless > >> > > dense with the preoccupations of contemporary working people and > enriched > >> > > by implicit analgies between the lives of their actors and the biblical > >> > > events they portray." > >> > > > >> > > In the intro to the 2 Shep, it says, "It [medieval drama] developed not > >> > > from classical drama, which virtually died out in the Middle Ages, but > >> > > from the church liturgy." The rest of the intro to the play seems to be > >> > > based in large part on Kolve. > >> > > > >> > > Sue Webb > >> > > Texas Woman's University > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Abigail Ann Young (Dr), Associate Editor/Records of Early English Drama/ > >> > Victoria College/ 150 Charles Street W/ Toronto Ontario Canada M5S 1K9 > >> > Phone (416) 585-4504/ FAX (416) 813-4093/ [log in to unmask] > >> > List-owner of REED-L <http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed-l.html> > >> > <http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed.html> REED's home page > >> > <http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/stage.html> our theatre resource page > >> > <http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~young> my home page > > > > > > >