I still intend to respond to Russ' review of our book (Worlds Apart etc.); however, the question about real writing situations reminds me of Anna Freedman's analogy in her provocative paper, "Anyone for tennis?" -- I have watched an exchange of shots, some of them have been returned, others have whizzed by, and I no longer want to remain a spectator, but take up my racket and make a few telling returns (really write, for all real writing is consequential -- something gets done, something happens). For one, most school writing is not real writing (it is of course, real school writing), though we would very much like to make it so, because, I suspect we believe there is no learning without engagement. As Russ has suggested, real writing occurs in anticipation of a response, is dialogic (in the Bakhtinian sense). In Anna Freedman's tennis analogy, the shot must be returned or conceded. A grade is not a shot in response (the evaluator is on the sidelines, like a coach perhaps, shouting "good shot!" but there is no one on the other side of the net to return that shot -- that well-crafted wrist shot, the elegant rhetorical turn, goes into empty space); a grade is not even feedback -- in the sense of an ongoing dialogue, a speaker, or an actor, or a performer picking up from an audience; the institutional setting defines the act of writing: what is good writing (earns a good grade)? and how do I make this good? But enough of analogizing. As the other Freedman (Aviva) has said, school writing goes nowhere; once it's graded, it's filed away, discarded, forgotten. At the end of term, so many of those well-bound reports are left behind, and end up in the recycling bin. In our research on academic and workplace writing, most workplace writers asserted that they had learned to write at work. We might claim that we prepared them to write at work, but they certainly did not see the link. Rightly so. Workplaces are complex settings, hierarchical, with long institutional histories, organizational cultures, and a lot more (not unlike our own institutions and departments, one has to live a long time in them to learn their ways); so such settings and the exigencies that arise within them cannot be simulated in classrooms. As Aviva Freedman puts it so succinctly, you write where you are. I have argued elsewhere that so much of school time is spent preparing for the life after, whether that be Grade 3, Junior or Senior High, Community College, or the University; and at each level, there is the perennial complaint: Didn't they teach you anything in ........? Students need to be writing for the here and now, from their own needs, as defined by them. It is only then they will be able to judge for themselves if they are accomplishing what they set out to do, and what remains to be done. It is the need to say that ineffable "such and such a thing" that James Britton said is worked out in the saying, is discovered or realized in the writing. Real writing serves intention, is goal-directed, is motivated by will and desire. Good writing, real writing, I believe, is an outcome of our using language as a tool, as an extension of ourselves, and not as something "out there" that we somehow appropriate and model. Classroom communities are just as real as any workplace setting for writing. I know from much of this discussion and from past issues of Inkshed that places for such writing are always in the making. Patrick Dias 518 Montford Drive Dollard des Ormeaux, QC Canada H9G 1M8 Phone: 514-626-3605 (Home) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- To leave the list, send a SIGNOFF CASLL command to [log in to unmask] or, if you experience difficulties, write to Russ Hunt at [log in to unmask] For the list archives and information about the organization, its newsletter, and the annual conference, go to http://www.stu.ca/inkshed/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-