Here's a suggestion: why don't we try to answer Russ' questions by describing situations in which students have or have not seen situations as desiring responses (#2 below)? Here's one I'm working with tonight (still teaching on the quarter system): A student in my technical writing class is writing a manual for writing center tutors. She herself is a writing center tutor (undergrad student, peer-tutor), and the document she is writing responds to a situation she and other tutors perceived as a problem in the writing center: that first tutorial comes up way too fast and tutors don't feel they are prepared for it. So she is writing this document in response to that felt need. In the process of writing it she has interviewed other tutors, had those tutors read the draft and respond to her efforts, and has been revising it based on those responses. Ultimately it will be used next fall as one of the documents used to train the new tutors as they start their careers in the writing center. In answer to Q3 below, I've been trying to construct assignments that put the onus on the student to identify what *they* regard as a genuine question and then support them as they work from that question out into some kind of discursive process and product. It doesn't always work in the sense that some students fail to take up the conversational gambit, but it does attempt to situate the writing as purposeful and important beyond context of the class assignment in a way consistent with Russ' paraphrase of Patrick's re-statement of Roberta's comment (below). Roger Graves -------------------- This gets us away from the distraction of whether the words "real" or "authentic" are appropriate, and takes us to what I think is the heart of the matter. And I want to raise three ancillary questions, ones that have been bothering me for some time. 1. Can we make a principled distinction between "a response" and a reaction -- in the sense that there's a distinction between what I might do when someone said, "produce a sentence with a nominative absolute in it" and what I might do when someone said "wait a minute, I don't know what you mean by 'nominative absolute'?" I'm trying to find a way to phrase the way in which the discourse produced in the two cases is likely to be radically different. 2. Assuming there's a dramatic difference between (a) perceiving a situation as desiring a response and (b) seeing that an assignment to produce an example of discourse has been given, is it reasonable to think that a student could, _in the context of a formal course_, ever see a situation as the first and not the second? And by "see" I mean there something more than "accept as a true statement"; I mean treat the situation as one in which an actual interlocutor asked a genuine question, or one the student perceived as genuine. 3. To what extent is it reasonable to imagine what students need to learn to do _as students_ is to put themselves, or allow themselves to be put, in a position where although no one has actually asked a genuine question, they can imagine the situation as one in which someone has? In other words, to engage fully in what is finally ("really") at best a simulation? My bottom line seems to be this hypothesis: participating in rhetorical transactions which are (or are seen to be) "real" in just this narrow sense is the strongest possible support for learning how to participate in such transactions. All the evidence from oral language development suggests that it's by using language to get important stuff done -- like getting fed or changed or hugged -- that children learn to use language in the remarkable ways we all use it. All the evidence from early childhood literacy suggests that it's by seeing that written language serves immediate felt purposes (like knowing which is the toothpaste or getting _Goodnight Moon_ read again) that produces literacy development. All the research from studies of workplace writing suggests that when learning happens in workplaces it usually happens according to that model: Odell & Goswami's insurance executives learned the sophisticated rhetorical strategies they were deploying from the situations around them, and it seems pretty clear something like that is going on throughout _Worlds Apart_. As Anne Hungerford pointed out during the discussion that Sunday morning, workplaces aren't always such great learning environments, but but they do have one thing we normally don't offer our students -- or I don't see that we do: situations which are "perceived by the writer as demanding or desiring a response." (My own suspicion is that Patrick's paraphrase of Roberta is right: "we need to get out of the way, not front and centre, not the primary audience, and then at least, writers will attend to finding, discovering, what it is they want to say, what matters and what is realizable given constraints of time and other commitments. It is in such contexts that we learn whatever we learn as writers.") -- Russ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- To leave the list, send a SIGNOFF CASLL command to [log in to unmask] or, if you experience difficulties, write to Russ Hunt at [log in to unmask] For the list archives and information about the organization, its newsletter, and the annual conference, go to http://www.stu.ca/inkshed/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-