Rob, Respectfully, I can't get around a few points about turnitin. 1. It reifies students as second-class citizens. No one else has to put up with the presumption (YES, the presumption) that they may well have cheated. Yes, "requirement" is very different than "presumption," but equally specious is the argument that one precludes the other so that if it's "just" a requirement it can't be *based on* the presumption of guilt. You could require students to undergo a lice inspection when coming onto campus everyday. It would not technically presume any given individual had lice. It would simply be based on a broader presumption that in general, members of a particular group were likely to have lice. (Your analogy to a passport signature doesn't hold because it doesn't represent the same kind of requirement. A better anology would be if the passport signature were scanned and run through a database of all open criminal cases with handwriting sample evidence every time the passport were used. Still not a great analogy but closer.) 2. It is outright theft. This company takes student papers without compensation and uses them to turn a profit. Of course, maybe my standards are too high. A history professor I had once in a senior-level class habitually collected students' primary research and published it as his own without attribution or credit. I thought that was outright theft too. But I guess since we were only students (see pt #1). . . . 3. This point has been made a billion times: if you've created an assignment that allows for habitual plagiarism, maybe it's time to create an assignment that doesn't. 4. Your own point about gaps in turnitin's coverage shows simply one tiny crack among thousands. Anyone who thinks that turnitin is a good blanket way to catch plagiarism is living in a dream world. It's searching only a tiny sample of what's out there, and it's laughing all the way to the bank doing it. As most plagiarism hunts do, turnitin is pretty much only catching the *stupid* cheaters. Again respectfully, I don't understand how you can say that you don't see your job as catching cheaters, and that you "don't especially like turnitin," and still apparently be of the opinion not just that the student's reasoning is specious (of course at some points it is) but that turnitin isn't such a bad thing -- to the extent that you apparently use it quite a bit. Wouldn't a better "learning tool" be to have a half-hour conference where students bring in their sources and profs review how the sources were used in the paper? This post keeps growing so I should stop it here. (In fact, I haven' been able to include Rob's original post because of the line cap.) Cheers -- Doug Downs Teaching Fellow Communication Consultant, College of Engineering University of Utah -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- To leave the list, send a SIGNOFF CASLL command to [log in to unmask] or, if you experience difficulties, write to Russ Hunt at [log in to unmask] For the list archives and information about the organization, its newsletter, and the annual conference, go to http://www.stu.ca/inkshed/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-