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Thanks, Jim and Larry for an intersting discussion. Jim, is there any relevant evidence of special devotion to a St. John (images, dedications, relics) that might help? Cliff On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, James Stokes wrote: > Dear Larry, > > I haven't found such a place (a village or town) in the place-name > dictionaries and other local sources, including feasts of dedication, so > I'm getting the impression that there was no place of that name in the > county. But the guild hall in Grimsby was often called St. John a Bower > house (which I take to mean St. John of the Bower House). So, I'm > thinking that it might well mean St. John of the Guild Hall, the guild > hall being perceived locally as a kind of haven (near The Haven in > Grimsby). > > Could it refer to something a la Shripshire in a field, with structures? > That sounds very reasonable and very Lincolnshire. A Grimsby record > from 1602 (admittedly much later) describes a play near Whitsontide at > which two fellows were sitting together (so, seating of some kind was > available), and one of the two fellows knocked the other one to the > ground (which I take literally to mean that the play was being held out > of doors). I cite this only in support of the notion that they were > familiar with outdoor plays in Grimsby. > > I've received some good suggestions from folks for further research, and > I'll let you know if something turns up. > > Thanks again, Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: REED-L: Records of Early English Drama Discussion > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of nm > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:39 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: a query > > > Dear Jim-- > > You certainly have a better knowledge of the kinds of activities > going on in this area than I do. The significant fact, which I didn't > recall from my reading of the records, is that there are a number of > prominent people organizing this thing. That would suggest something > larger than a spring festival organized by young people. I did wonder, > however, whether this may be somethig like the festival at Shropshire > where they built some kind of structures in the field outside town for a > feast. I look forward to seeing the records you have collected. > > But the "Bower" reference remains a problem. You suggest that > this might be some local appropriation of a saint (St. John in this > case), but that still doesn't explain why he is St. John of Bower. > There isn't any such place, is there? > > Larry > > On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, James Stokes wrote: > > > Hi Larry, > > > > Thanks for the interesting and helpful information about faux saints. > > It's a phenomenon new to me, so I'll need to get the book and learn > > more. > > > > When I first encountered the record (in Stan's book and in the Grimsby > > > archives), I had a similar thought--that the bower must refer to a > > seasonal game with a Summer or similar lord. Nineteenth century > > antiquarians claim, with absolutely no documentary evidence, that > > early Grimsby staged Robin Hood games and lots else in the churchyard. > > > In Somerset I had found Robin Hood and May bowers everywhere--from > > Yeovil to Wells, and so have many people in other parts of the > > country, of course. The bowers in Somerset were purpose built little > > structures used in the games; and the word also suggests a haven or > > refuge or shelter. Since I haven't had time yet to learn more about > > faux saints, I don't quite know what the French were doing. But > > something comes to mind. I've encountered many cases of local folk > > appropriating a saint as their own. In Wells, for example, St Andrew > > (patron saint of Wells Cathedral) is often referred to in the records > > as St Andrew of Wells. Not faux exactly, but faux-ish in that it > > afixes elements of local mythology to him. I could see the folk at > > Grimsby referring to St John as St John of the Bower (but that's pure > > speculation). Anyway, perhaps you are right. > > > > However, a couple of issues continue to bother me. > > > > While the principal festive and fund-raising entertainments in > > Somerset parishes tended to be the seasonal kinds of games (lords, > > ladies, etc., ridings, mock battles, etc.), the situation in > > Lincolnshire was different in that all the evidence that we have > > indicates that their fund-raisers were large religious plays, as at > > Donington, Lincoln, and elsewhere. Lincolnshire towns had big, > > wealthy religious guilds, a different kind of landscape, and a social > > environment history that more resembled East Anglia. What I find in > > parish and guild records in Lincolnshire is not summer lords but > > Ascension plays, for example, or biblical plays. I wonder, would the > > second oldest chartered borough in the county have had only a Summer > > Lord game as its parish play? Would it have traveled to other towns > > to promote that? I don't know. Maybe so. > > > > (I must stress agreement that Lincolnshire certainly had traditions of > > > such Summer Lords, wakes,ales, et al, from the time of Robert > > Grosseteste all the way to the seventeenth century and beyond; it's > > just that they don't show up in records as "the" parish play). > > > > Also, would the mayor of Grimsby have found it necessary to appoint > > six of the most important merchants and burgesses of the town (four of > > > them former mayors) to oversee preparations for a summer lord? I > > don't know, but maybe so. > > > > Also, in the year of the entry (1527), Lincolnshire towns were filled > > with extremely pious religious guilds then mounting the most elaborate > > > Corpus Christi processions, plays, music, worship, etc. Royals, their > > minions, and their players were strongly present. There might have > > been a spirit of drollerie and a faux saint in Grimsby, but, I don't > > know and I've found no other evidence of it. > > > > At the moment: I'm thinking that the entry might possibly refer to St > > John Baptist somehow appropriated by the locals and connected in its > > symbolism with the ruling oligarchy and the sea-going life of the > > town. > > > > Thanks again Larry, and others > > > > > > Abby: I'm putting a photocopy of the doc. in the mail. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: REED-L: Records of Early English Drama Discussion > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of nm > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 1:12 PM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: a query > > > > > > Jim-- > > > > Sorry to get in on this so late. I don't think this is a real > > > saint. The Bower is the tip-off. I suggested in my book that this is > > > a summer lord of some kind and that the bower refers to the structure > > that summer lords and ladies used to hold their court. He's a faux > saint. > > There's a wonderful recent book by my colleague Jacques > > Merceron about French faux saints. Don't have the title at hand, but > > it can be easily accessed through his name (title begins, I think, > > Dictionnaire). The French seem cleverer at this sort of drollerie than > > > the English as best I can tell. > > > > Larry > > > > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, James Stokes wrote: > > > > > Is anyone on the list able to shed light on the name Holy John of > > > Bower, which appears in the records of Grimsby, Lincolnshire? Is it > > > > likely to refer to John the Baptist, or is there another saint of > > > that > > > > > particular name who has eluded my best efforts to identify him? > > > Many, many thanks for any light cast into this resistant little > > > darkness. Jim Stokes > > > > > > > > > >