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Hi Cliff, That's work that I will need to do. At the moment I can only say that I find reference to 25 Lincolnshire churches dedicated to St. John Baptist (5 or 6 of them in northeast Lincs proximate to Grimsby), and six dedicated to St. John Evangelist (a couple of them in the Grimsby region of the county) (Venables, "The Dedications of the Churches in Lincolnshire as Illustrating the History of the County," AASP 16.1 (1881): 1-26). Jim -----Original Message----- From: REED-L: Records of Early English Drama Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask] Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:23 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: a query Thanks, Jim and Larry for an intersting discussion. Jim, is there any relevant evidence of special devotion to a St. John (images, dedications, relics) that might help? Cliff On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, James Stokes wrote: > Dear Larry, > > I haven't found such a place (a village or town) in the place-name > dictionaries and other local sources, including feasts of dedication, > so I'm getting the impression that there was no place of that name in > the county. But the guild hall in Grimsby was often called St. John a > Bower house (which I take to mean St. John of the Bower House). So, > I'm thinking that it might well mean St. John of the Guild Hall, the > guild hall being perceived locally as a kind of haven (near The Haven > in Grimsby). > > Could it refer to something a la Shripshire in a field, with > structures? That sounds very reasonable and very Lincolnshire. A > Grimsby record from 1602 (admittedly much later) describes a play near > Whitsontide at which two fellows were sitting together (so, seating of > some kind was available), and one of the two fellows knocked the other > one to the ground (which I take literally to mean that the play was > being held out of doors). I cite this only in support of the notion > that they were familiar with outdoor plays in Grimsby. > > I've received some good suggestions from folks for further research, > and I'll let you know if something turns up. > > Thanks again, Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: REED-L: Records of Early English Drama Discussion > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of nm > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:39 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: a query > > > Dear Jim-- > > You certainly have a better knowledge of the kinds of > activities going on in this area than I do. The significant fact, > which I didn't recall from my reading of the records, is that there > are a number of prominent people organizing this thing. That would > suggest something larger than a spring festival organized by young > people. I did wonder, however, whether this may be somethig like the > festival at Shropshire where they built some kind of structures in the > field outside town for a feast. I look forward to seeing the records > you have collected. > > But the "Bower" reference remains a problem. You suggest that > this might be some local appropriation of a saint (St. John in this > case), but that still doesn't explain why he is St. John of Bower. > There isn't any such place, is there? > > Larry > > On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, James Stokes wrote: > > > Hi Larry, > > > > Thanks for the interesting and helpful information about faux > > saints. It's a phenomenon new to me, so I'll need to get the book > > and learn more. > > > > When I first encountered the record (in Stan's book and in the > > Grimsby > > > archives), I had a similar thought--that the bower must refer to a > > seasonal game with a Summer or similar lord. Nineteenth century > > antiquarians claim, with absolutely no documentary evidence, that > > early Grimsby staged Robin Hood games and lots else in the > > churchyard. > > > In Somerset I had found Robin Hood and May bowers everywhere--from > > Yeovil to Wells, and so have many people in other parts of the > > country, of course. The bowers in Somerset were purpose built > > little structures used in the games; and the word also suggests a > > haven or refuge or shelter. Since I haven't had time yet to learn > > more about faux saints, I don't quite know what the French were > > doing. But something comes to mind. I've encountered many cases of > > local folk appropriating a saint as their own. In Wells, for > > example, St Andrew (patron saint of Wells Cathedral) is often > > referred to in the records as St Andrew of Wells. Not faux exactly, > > but faux-ish in that it afixes elements of local mythology to him. > > I could see the folk at Grimsby referring to St John as St John of > > the Bower (but that's pure speculation). Anyway, perhaps you are > > right. > > > > However, a couple of issues continue to bother me. > > > > While the principal festive and fund-raising entertainments in > > Somerset parishes tended to be the seasonal kinds of games (lords, > > ladies, etc., ridings, mock battles, etc.), the situation in > > Lincolnshire was different in that all the evidence that we have > > indicates that their fund-raisers were large religious plays, as at > > Donington, Lincoln, and elsewhere. Lincolnshire towns had big, > > wealthy religious guilds, a different kind of landscape, and a > > social environment history that more resembled East Anglia. What I > > find in parish and guild records in Lincolnshire is not summer lords > > but Ascension plays, for example, or biblical plays. I wonder, > > would the second oldest chartered borough in the county have had > > only a Summer Lord game as its parish play? Would it have traveled > > to other towns to promote that? I don't know. Maybe so. > > > > (I must stress agreement that Lincolnshire certainly had traditions > > of > > > such Summer Lords, wakes,ales, et al, from the time of Robert > > Grosseteste all the way to the seventeenth century and beyond; it's > > just that they don't show up in records as "the" parish play). > > > > Also, would the mayor of Grimsby have found it necessary to appoint > > six of the most important merchants and burgesses of the town (four > > of > > > them former mayors) to oversee preparations for a summer lord? I > > don't know, but maybe so. > > > > Also, in the year of the entry (1527), Lincolnshire towns were > > filled with extremely pious religious guilds then mounting the most > > elaborate > > > Corpus Christi processions, plays, music, worship, etc. Royals, > > their minions, and their players were strongly present. There might > > have been a spirit of drollerie and a faux saint in Grimsby, but, I > > don't know and I've found no other evidence of it. > > > > At the moment: I'm thinking that the entry might possibly refer to > > St John Baptist somehow appropriated by the locals and connected in > > its symbolism with the ruling oligarchy and the sea-going life of > > the town. > > > > Thanks again Larry, and others > > > > > > Abby: I'm putting a photocopy of the doc. in the mail. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: REED-L: Records of Early English Drama Discussion > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of nm > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 1:12 PM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: a query > > > > > > Jim-- > > > > Sorry to get in on this so late. I don't think this is a > > real > > > saint. The Bower is the tip-off. I suggested in my book that this > > is > > > a summer lord of some kind and that the bower refers to the > > structure that summer lords and ladies used to hold their court. > > He's a faux > saint. > > There's a wonderful recent book by my colleague Jacques > > Merceron about French faux saints. Don't have the title at hand, > > but it can be easily accessed through his name (title begins, I > > think, Dictionnaire). The French seem cleverer at this sort of > > drollerie than > > > the English as best I can tell. > > > > Larry > > > > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, James Stokes wrote: > > > > > Is anyone on the list able to shed light on the name Holy John of > > > Bower, which appears in the records of Grimsby, Lincolnshire? Is > > > it > > > > likely to refer to John the Baptist, or is there another saint of > > > that > > > > > particular name who has eluded my best efforts to identify him? > > > Many, many thanks for any light cast into this resistant little > > > darkness. Jim Stokes > > > > > > > > > >