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A respectful an thoughtful answer Faisal. I'm not a biblical scholar so I could not quote the passage or point out where in the bible Christians believe this happens. Perhaps it's because the Bible is a bit older and science was more advanced when Islam and Mohammed arrived. By the way that was not meant to be disrespectful toward Islam just an observation. Now let's your point and assume it is true just for the sake of discussion. I have said before I don't know what is true and would rather error on the side of life. If you ask a doctor today how many months it has been since conception they could only guess. In a matter so important one would not want make a mistake by a day. So how do you know when you are taking such a permanent step? From what you have said one could reason that aborting a fetus 4 months and one day old would be considered a sin in Islam and aborting one a day before would not be. This is the heart of the, quandary knowing for sure where that line is. From what you have said there would be no doubt Mohammed would have said a 10 day old embryo did not have a soul and at the same time an 8 month term baby would. I don't think Christianity is that precise nor do I think Jewish teachings are either. It seams to me that Jewdao Christian teachings rely more on the interpretations of their leaders of the day vs. precise language in the Bible, Old or New testament. Once again I don't know as I am not a Biblical scholar. Now let's take that scenario even further. Assume we are working with fertilized eggs from a fertility clinic. Those have grown into embryos but have not yet been implanted. They are frozen and science has perfected a way to unthaw them and yet preserve their ability to continue growth. Once the embryos reach 4 months old does the embryo have a soul? Science sure has a way of making simple statements taken from respected religious teachings very complicated. Any time you start mixing science and statistics with religion there will be passionate discussions. I don't have the answers I'm searching. It seems to me that younger religions may be a bit more precise in their declarations associated with science than older religions. I do appreciate your non judgmental response. Information like this is food for thought. Had Mohammed been able to comprehend the advances of science today I am sure he would have sought inspiration and offered guidance. I am not sure I would even attempt to think what his guidance would have been. That would be a mistake on my part. Regards Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Faisal Mohammed" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 4:53 PM Subject: Full Human at fourth month... > Frank, answer to one of ur questions.... > Prophet Mohammed (Arabia, b. 632 AD, believed by a billion people to have > brought message directly from God) has said that when the embryo becomes > four months old, God sends an angel to put human soul into it. > Rgds. > Faisal > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "FrankandTeri" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 4:31 AM > Subject: Bushes policy on SCNT is a thoughtful respectful approach for > thinking people > > > > The heart of the Pro SCNT argument is that the egg is never implanted in a > > womb but rather cultured outside of the womb and is not intended for > cloning > > human life. This is a simple and quick answer. > > > > The heart of the Anti SCNT argument is that the egg is the first step in > > full grown human life and from the first step it represents human life. > We > > all know that an "Untampered" egg and a "Untampered" sperm are not life > but > > the potential. A baby being born is the final step in creating viable > life > > outside the womb. At some point life in the womb is not viable outside > but > > many still consider it humane life. The exact point at which the egg, > once > > it starts to grow, becomes human life is what people are questioning. > Those > > that are not sure have legitimate human dilemmas regarding this research. > > If the egg starts to reproduce through some tampering and is cultivated > > (encouraged to grow) in a dish vs. a womb it does not make it less human > in > > many peoples eyes. This is the heart of the dilemma. If you could > imagine > > for a moment that the same tampered egg were transplanted into an > artificial > > womb there would remain the potential the egg could grow into a human > clone > > of the donor of the nucleic material. > > > > Those in favor of this valuable research would like to paint it very > simply > > as a "no brainer." They also like to paint hose opposed as sending us > back > > to the Middle Ages. It is a very simplistic view of the world. There is > no > > way thoughtful process and intellectual debate regarding very complex > moral > > issues takes us backward. Quite the contrary it helps us move to a higher > > plateau. > > > > The question was posed "whose life do I take with... an unfertilized egg > and > > my own DNA?" > > > > Part one answer... unfertilized eggs do not reproduce. > > > > Part two answer... perhaps you take the life of your identical twin. > > > > I for one am a thinker and find quick simple answers to complex problems a > > bit to convenient and self serving. I don't know the answer but for the > > time I would rather error on the side of believing I am not creating a > human > > life to be sacrificed to make mine more comfortable. There are answers > out > > there. Those that have the sense to recognize that complex problems > usually > > require much thought and are willing to devote themselves to finding the > > answers are the people I most admire. > > > > Regards to all and respect for all > > > > Frank > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rayilyn Brown" <[log in to unmask]> > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:27 PM > > Subject: Bush policy's chilling effect on research > > > > > > > This is from one of Murray's posts: - don't blame him, please > > > > > > "Dr. Melton's passion is kindled, in part, by his two children with > > diabetes, > > > where stem-cell research holds enormous promise. The Bush policy, he > adds, > > is > > > having a "chilling effect on the field." > > > > > > I don't personally think I will live long enough to benefit from a cure > > that > > > would certainly in the long un be a lot cheaper than our present health > > care > > > system. This seems like such a no-brainer and rush back to the Middle > > Ages. > > > Again, whose life do I take with SCNT- an unfertilized egg and my own > DNA? > > > > > > Also, why do so many anti-SCNTers not oppose fertility clinics? I had > an > > > email argument once with an anti-abortionist who thought every in vitro > > embryo > > > became a person. He did know that fetal cell research had been involved > > in > > > the development of vaccines for childhood diseases, so he didn't have > his > > kids > > > vaccinated. > > > > > > As a teacher I was very respectful of my student's views; > Unfortunately, > > I > > > have a lot less patience with adults., I feel like they should be able > to > > take > > > the heat. Also our debates in my classes were not re personal life and > > death > > > issues. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: > > mailto:[log in to unmask] > > > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] > > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn