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If you guys are arguing with Joe Thorne, he is on a list of mine and isn't even hearing you. Also, he and I often disagree. He really cannot be categorized and don't know how or why he sent his response to my letter to the PIEN list. I sent a copy of my latest letter in The Californian to both lists. Ray ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn