Hi I must have missed Bob's letter that he was leaving and also the reasons behind his decision to do so. Never the less, I am sure he will be missed, even though I did not agree with him or his mode of response to me in a couple of issues. When I was talking about ayurvedic medicine and about taking folic acid as a supplement, he came on vehemently against it and myself personally. This was uncalled for. I am not the one who is practicing ayurvedic medicine; I am just a patient who is looking out for escaping the miseries of PD. But, he did not spare any effort to kill the messenger. Folic acid supplement is recommended by a lot of nutrition experts including Dr. Weil. It is very important to maintain low levels of homocystiene in our blood, which, if I remember right, is elevated in patients taking sinemet. He downright called me an idiot for stating that I was taking folic acid supplement. He stopped abusing me only when I sent him some references. But, that does not mean we can afford to lose an MD from our columns. But then, we have to learn to live without him, I guess. Raj **************** ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles T. Meyer <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 8:07 PM Subject: Re: Farewell > THIS IS A SAD DAY FOR THE LIST. Bob Fink has announced that he is > leaving us and there has been no comment on his letter. In addition > John Cottingham and Barb Patterson have remained silent on the > issue. To lose such a valued member of the group- a neurosurgeon > and possibly the only practicing MD remaining on the list is indeed our > great loss. And especially I think, that all it would have taken is an > apology to cut this off. Now the ugly specter of censorship hias > reared its head I am fearful that it will continue with others. John > Cottingham, I think you are in error by not apologizing to Bob and Bob > while I think you are right to demand an apology rather than Censorship > aren't you taking it a little far by contacting the Board of trustees of > the Uof T and threatening a lawsuit for defamation? > > Bob and I have disagreed about many things but I have found him to be > thoughtful and courteous and respectful of my point of view. John and > Barb and I have agreed on most things but I think you are dead wrong on > this one. I can understand that you wish to keep controversy on an > intellectual basis rather than a personal one and protect the list but > aren't the eggs for the omelet already broken? Bob is leaving the list > and while I don't intend to leave I will if censorship continues.. I > think that is what happens when censorship occurs- more and more people > give up contributing and the threads become less and less relevant. > > The issues of stem cells and abortion have been the major area where Bob > and I part company. The issue of when human life begins is what it all > boils down to. Bob feels that all life regardless of stage or semblance > of humanity is sacred and even though it is growing inside of someone > else it is the moral equivalent of murder to terminate a life no matter > how primitive . I rationalize this by stating that it more complex than > that and that and in making the choice to have an abortion one must > take into account the rights of the mother and the circumstances the > child will be born into. Nonetheless if I thought that feeling > thinking human beings were being killed I would feel it necessary to > take action to prevent it. as would most of you (I hope). It comes down > to what we are raised to believe , religion if I can mention that here > (without censorship)- and how literally one takes the Bible. This is a > sensitive area and will not be settled by any legislation or court > rulings. With the country being split close to 50-50 neither side will > convince the other especially since the genie is out of the bottle now > and won't be stuffed back in. Bob - if you want widespread civil > disobedience and ignoring of a law along with the tragedy of botched > abortions you will see a lot of illegal abortion drugs and abortions > being performed just try and pass this one > > Stem cells I think are quite a different matter since they do not have a > chance of becoming human beings (since they come from IVF) I feel that > their potential for the relief of suffering and lack of we ever > potential humanity should make all but the most avid right to lifer take > pause. Bob, I have a great deal more respect for you and your positions > because you at least considered the difference between abortion and stem > cell research. > > Bob, I wish that you would consider staying with the List but I > understand if you don't. Please keep in touch with me and others who > value your opinions. > > Charlie > Charles T. Meyer, MD > Middleton, WI > > > > > > > Robert A. Fink, M. D. wrote: > > >I have waited for a number of weeks, this to see if there would be any > >"retreat" on the part of the "Administration" of the Parkinsn List, but there > >has been none. Similarly, my letter of protest to the Academic Council of the > >University of Toronto (which hosts the List), has gone unanswered. > >Therefore, what follows will be my final post to the List (assuming that it isn't > >censored when it comes under "review", the status which I have been placed > >in by Barbara Patterson). > > > >This issue began over the discussion of stem cells and the ethics related to > >such. This matter is no longer the focus of the situation. The electorate of the > >USA has, by its majority decision to re-elect President Bush, chosen its > >national course over the next four years. My own state, California, passed > >Proposition 71 (which I opposed), which has allocated a large sum of money > >(from tax revenues) *mandated* to go for stem cell research; money which > >will be diverted from other health-related issues, such as care for the > >underinsured or uninsured population of California. The voters of California > >have chosen their priorities and will, in my opinion, eventually regret their > >choice. > > > >The issue which has resulted in my decision to remove myself from this List > >is the fact that, back in September, John Cottingham, a co-owner of the > >Parkinsn List, sent a public message which said: > > > >"Enough has been said about abortion, legal cases and when life begins. > >It's humorous really that one of the lists' most vehement proponents to > >'Right to Life' also collects fees for removing organs from those on life > >support. Never get between someones 'public' persona and their livelihood." > > > >This was after I, in response to a question raised by another Listmember as to > >whether I supported organ donation, replied that I had indeed, worked with > >families of brain-dead individuals in order to help other families which > >needed organs for transplant purposes. To post words such as quoted above > >in a public forum is the worst form of slander. > > > >When I persisted in demanding a *public* apology, Barbara's response was to > >offer to "chat" on MSN Messenger (I do not use such services because they > >are virus-prone and attract Spam), and when I continued to ask for that > >apology, Barbara placed me "on review" (meaning that all of my posts would > >be "censored" before they are released to the List. Since that action, I have > >not posted any messages to the Parkinsn List, as I will not participate in a > >"censored" List as a matter of principle. > > > >During the time that I have been a member of this List (I think that it has been > >about 10 years), I have seen much vitriol dispensed. In the months before the > >recently-completed USA electoral process, there had been many nasty and > >disrespectful postings regarding our president, and other governmental > >officials by Listmembers who disagree with governmental policies. The > >personal attacks by several individuals on the List (you know who you are) > >have continued even until now (when the electoral decision is history), and > >yet, such people have not been placed "on review". Similarly, other > >Listmembers, including myself, who asked that the president and others > >elected officials not be made subject to disrespect on the List, were > >themselves placed "on review". > > > >When Barbara cited the "rules" as to indications for placing members "on > >review", she stated that my disagreement as to the unrestricted use of > >embryonic stem cells for research might negatively affect "fragile members of > >this List", and somehow interfere with their "sense of community". When > >posts such as made by several other members of this List are accepted (many > >of them, like John Cottingham's, being personal attacks), it is unacceptable to > >me that my remarks, not directed to an individual, are worthy of censorship. > > > >The Listowners have every right to construct and maintain their List in any > >way that they wish. If they wish to have a "feelgood" structure, where people > >can mainly give emotional support to each other, then that is fine. On the > >other hand, if this List is to be a source of scientific information concerning > >Parkinson's and related conditions (and attract participation by professionals > >in the field), it must be understood that some of the information obtained may > >not always be "warm and fuzzy", and that significant controversies exist in > >the field. I had thought that the "I" in PIEN, stood for "information", and that > >this, along with support, was one of the main objectives of this List. > > > >In summary, it is my position that John Cottingham, by his remarks of > >September regarding "removing organs from those on life support" (his > >words), has slandered me; and though, in a subsequent note from Barbara, > >John is alleged to have said that his remarks were "humorous", I did not > >consider them humorous in any way. His continued refusal to apologize (and > >since the posting was public, I have insisted that the apology likewise be > >public), along with Barbara's decision to "penalize the victim", tell me that I > >no longer belong on this List. > > > >To those with whom I have been associated here for a decade, I wish you the > >best of good fortune as you battle, either directly or indirectly, with > >Parkinson's disease. > > > > > >Sincerely, > > > > > >Bob Fink > > > > > >********************************************** > >Robert A. Fink, M. D., F.A.C.S., P. C. > >2500 Milvia Street Suite 222 > >Berkeley, California 94704-2636 > >Telephone: 510-849-2555 FAX: 510-849-2557 > >WWW: http://www.rafink.com/ > > > >mailto:[log in to unmask] > > > >"Ex Tristitia Virtus" > > > >********************************************* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn