I agree fully with you, Jo Ann. He was a nice and well educated man to throw some ideas at and get his feedback. But, we don't have any chpice . Do we? I am also sorry to see him leave our community. Raj *********** ----- Original Message ----- From: Jo Ann Coen <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Farewell > No Way, Raj. I don't think we CAN learn to live without him. He is too > valuable a contributor, and will be missed by many, many people, if he > decides to leave. I am one, who understands where he is coming from. I > also, don't always agree with him, but his statements do give me food for > thought, and causes me to do more research. NOT to prove him wrong, but > to settle the issue in my mind. He will be missed. Best wishes, Jo Ann > > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 09:57:13 -0400 Brightline > <[log in to unmask]> writes: > > Hi > > I must have missed Bob's letter that he was leaving and also the > > reasons > > behind his decision to do so. Never the less, I am sure he will be > > missed, > > even though I did not agree with him or his mode of response to me > > in a > > couple of issues. When I was talking about ayurvedic medicine and > > about > > taking folic acid as a supplement, he came on vehemently against it > > and > > myself personally. This was uncalled for. I am not the one who is > > practicing > > ayurvedic medicine; I am just a patient who is looking out for > > escaping the > > miseries of PD. But, he did not spare any effort to kill the > > messenger. > > Folic acid supplement is recommended by a lot of nutrition > > experts > > including Dr. Weil. It is very important to maintain low levels of > > homocystiene in our blood, which, if I remember right, is elevated > > in > > patients taking sinemet. He downright called me an idiot for stating > > that I > > was taking folic acid supplement. He stopped abusing me only when I > > sent him > > some references. > > But, that does not mean we can afford to lose an MD from our > > columns. > > But then, we have to learn to live without him, I guess. > > Raj > > **************** > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Charles T. Meyer <[log in to unmask]> > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 8:07 PM > > Subject: Re: Farewell > > > > > > > THIS IS A SAD DAY FOR THE LIST. Bob Fink has announced that he > > is > > > leaving us and there has been no comment on his letter. In > > addition > > > John Cottingham and Barb Patterson have remained silent on the > > > issue. To lose such a valued member of the group- a > > neurosurgeon > > > and possibly the only practicing MD remaining on the list is > > indeed our > > > great loss. And especially I think, that all it would have taken > > is an > > > apology to cut this off. Now the ugly specter of censorship > > hias > > > reared its head I am fearful that it will continue with others. > > John > > > Cottingham, I think you are in error by not apologizing to Bob > > and Bob > > > while I think you are right to demand an apology rather than > > Censorship > > > aren't you taking it a little far by contacting the Board of > > trustees of > > > the Uof T and threatening a lawsuit for defamation? > > > > > > Bob and I have disagreed about many things but I have found him to > > be > > > thoughtful and courteous and respectful of my point of view. John > > and > > > Barb and I have agreed on most things but I think you are dead > > wrong on > > > this one. I can understand that you wish to keep controversy on an > > > intellectual basis rather than a personal one and protect the list > > but > > > aren't the eggs for the omelet already broken? Bob is leaving the > > list > > > and while I don't intend to leave I will if censorship continues.. > > I > > > think that is what happens when censorship occurs- more and more > > people > > > give up contributing and the threads become less and less > > relevant. > > > > > > The issues of stem cells and abortion have been the major area > > where Bob > > > and I part company. The issue of when human life begins is what > > it all > > > boils down to. Bob feels that all life regardless of stage or > > semblance > > > of humanity is sacred and even though it is growing inside of > > someone > > > else it is the moral equivalent of murder to terminate a life no > > matter > > > how primitive . I rationalize this by stating that it more > > complex than > > > that and that and in making the choice to have an abortion one > > must > > > take into account the rights of the mother and the circumstances > > the > > > child will be born into. Nonetheless if I thought that feeling > > > thinking human beings were being killed I would feel it necessary > > to > > > take action to prevent it. as would most of you (I hope). It > > comes down > > > to what we are raised to believe , religion if I can mention that > > here > > > (without censorship)- and how literally one takes the Bible. This > > is a > > > sensitive area and will not be settled by any legislation or court > > > rulings. With the country being split close to 50-50 neither side > > will > > > convince the other especially since the genie is out of the bottle > > now > > > and won't be stuffed back in. Bob - if you want widespread civil > > > disobedience and ignoring of a law along with the tragedy of > > botched > > > abortions you will see a lot of illegal abortion drugs and > > abortions > > > being performed just try and pass this one > > > > > > Stem cells I think are quite a different matter since they do not > > have a > > > chance of becoming human beings (since they come from IVF) I > > feel that > > > their potential for the relief of suffering and lack of we ever > > > potential humanity should make all but the most avid right to > > lifer take > > > pause. Bob, I have a great deal more respect for you and your > > positions > > > because you at least considered the difference between abortion > > and stem > > > cell research. > > > > > > Bob, I wish that you would consider staying with the List but I > > > understand if you don't. Please keep in touch with me and others > > who > > > value your opinions. > > > > > > Charlie > > > Charles T. Meyer, MD > > > Middleton, WI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert A. Fink, M. D. wrote: > > > > > > >I have waited for a number of weeks, this to see if there would > > be any > > > >"retreat" on the part of the "Administration" of the Parkinsn > > List, but > > there > > > >has been none. Similarly, my letter of protest to the Academic > > Council > > of the > > > >University of Toronto (which hosts the List), has gone > > unanswered. > > > >Therefore, what follows will be my final post to the List > > (assuming that > > it isn't > > > >censored when it comes under "review", the status which I have > > been > > placed > > > >in by Barbara Patterson). > > > > > > > >This issue began over the discussion of stem cells and the ethics > > related > > to > > > >such. This matter is no longer the focus of the situation. The > > electorate of the > > > >USA has, by its majority decision to re-elect President Bush, > > chosen its > > > >national course over the next four years. My own state, > > California, > > passed > > > >Proposition 71 (which I opposed), which has allocated a large sum > > of > > money > > > >(from tax revenues) *mandated* to go for stem cell research; > > money which > > > >will be diverted from other health-related issues, such as care > > for the > > > >underinsured or uninsured population of California. The voters > > of > > California > > > >have chosen their priorities and will, in my opinion, eventually > > regret > > their > > > >choice. > > > > > > > >The issue which has resulted in my decision to remove myself from > > this > > List > > > >is the fact that, back in September, John Cottingham, a co-owner > > of the > > > >Parkinsn List, sent a public message which said: > > > > > > > >"Enough has been said about abortion, legal cases and when life > > begins. > > > >It's humorous really that one of the lists' most vehement > > proponents to > > > >'Right to Life' also collects fees for removing organs from those > > on life > > > >support. Never get between someones 'public' persona and their > > livelihood." > > > > > > > >This was after I, in response to a question raised by another > > Listmember > > as to > > > >whether I supported organ donation, replied that I had indeed, > > worked > > with > > > >families of brain-dead individuals in order to help other > > families which > > > >needed organs for transplant purposes. To post words such as > > quoted > > above > > > >in a public forum is the worst form of slander. > > > > > > > >When I persisted in demanding a *public* apology, Barbara's > > response was > > to > > > >offer to "chat" on MSN Messenger (I do not use such services > > because they > > > >are virus-prone and attract Spam), and when I continued to ask > > for that > > > >apology, Barbara placed me "on review" (meaning that all of my > > posts > > would > > > >be "censored" before they are released to the List. Since that > > action, I > > have > > > >not posted any messages to the Parkinsn List, as I will not > > participate > > in a > > > >"censored" List as a matter of principle. > > > > > > > >During the time that I have been a member of this List (I think > > that it > > has been > > > >about 10 years), I have seen much vitriol dispensed. In the > > months > > before the > > > >recently-completed USA electoral process, there had been many > > nasty and > > > >disrespectful postings regarding our president, and other > > governmental > > > >officials by Listmembers who disagree with governmental policies. > > The > > > >personal attacks by several individuals on the List (you know who > > you > > are) > > > >have continued even until now (when the electoral decision is > > history), > > and > > > >yet, such people have not been placed "on review". Similarly, > > other > > > >Listmembers, including myself, who asked that the president and > > others > > > >elected officials not be made subject to disrespect on the List, > > were > > > >themselves placed "on review". > > > > > > > >When Barbara cited the "rules" as to indications for placing > > members "on > > > >review", she stated that my disagreement as to the unrestricted > > use of > > > >embryonic stem cells for research might negatively affect > > "fragile > > members of > > > >this List", and somehow interfere with their "sense of > > community". When > > > >posts such as made by several other members of this List are > > accepted > > (many > > > >of them, like John Cottingham's, being personal attacks), it is > > unacceptable to > > > >me that my remarks, not directed to an individual, are worthy of > > censorship. > > > > > > > >The Listowners have every right to construct and maintain their > > List in > > any > > > >way that they wish. If they wish to have a "feelgood" structure, > > where > > people > > > >can mainly give emotional support to each other, then that is > > fine. On > > the > > > >other hand, if this List is to be a source of scientific > > information > > concerning > > > >Parkinson's and related conditions (and attract participation by > > professionals > > > >in the field), it must be understood that some of the information > > obtained may > > > >not always be "warm and fuzzy", and that significant > > controversies exist > > in > > > >the field. I had thought that the "I" in PIEN, stood for > > "information", > > and that > > > >this, along with support, was one of the main objectives of this > > List. > > > > > > > >In summary, it is my position that John Cottingham, by his > > remarks of > > > >September regarding "removing organs from those on life support" > > (his > > > >words), has slandered me; and though, in a subsequent note from > > Barbara, > > > >John is alleged to have said that his remarks were "humorous", I > > did not > > > >consider them humorous in any way. His continued refusal to > > apologize > > (and > > > >since the posting was public, I have insisted that the apology > > likewise > > be > > > >public), along with Barbara's decision to "penalize the victim", > > tell me > > that I > > > >no longer belong on this List. > > > > > > > >To those with whom I have been associated here for a decade, I > > wish you > > the > > > >best of good fortune as you battle, either directly or > > indirectly, with > > > >Parkinson's disease. > > > > > > > > > > > >Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > >Bob Fink > > > > > > > > > > > >********************************************** > > > >Robert A. Fink, M. D., F.A.C.S., P. C. > > > >2500 Milvia Street Suite 222 > > > >Berkeley, California 94704-2636 > > > >Telephone: 510-849-2555 FAX: 510-849-2557 > > > >WWW: http://www.rafink.com/ > > > > > > > >mailto:[log in to unmask] > > > > > > > >"Ex Tristitia Virtus" > > > > > > > >********************************************* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: > > mailto:[log in to unmask] > > > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: > > mailto:[log in to unmask] > > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn