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Wendy - Dr. Fink has posted much good info on our list regarding PD and
it's meds.  I believe that if you have a scratch on your arm and you
continue to have someone else come along and scratch it again and again,
that it soon becomes a sore that can fester, and my personal opinion is
that this is what happened.  A person can only take so much, then it is
time to withdraw and reconnoiter.  There are some who write such vehement
notes, and attacking messages, that it sickens me.  Whatever reason John
and Barbara use to reprimand and expel some and let others get by with
it,  I don't understand, but HAVE to accept if I want to continue
learning about PD.  And I do.  I wish you the best.  Jo Ann

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 10:38:27 -0600 Wendy Siegel <[log in to unmask]> writes:
> Charlie:
> Thank you for as always for a beautifully written post. I don't know
> how
> I missed this before - I certainly would have written my protest
> regarding Bob's departure. This is the first time I am seeing his
> post.
>
> I originally joined this list for the valuable information it
> provides.
> However, in recent months, there has been precious little valuable
> information, and far more name calling and useless bickering to
> waste my
> time.
>
> I have heard a few people complain about censorship while others
> continue to post inflammatory and divisive comments without any
> apparent
> intervention. I thought that this forum was for information. True
> information includes input from all points of view. To only allow
> one
> point of view to post limits knowledge, which restricts progress
> toward
> a solution. I am here because I am interested in finding a cure for
> Parkinson's. I am a researcher, and I am interested in the facts
> about
> Parkinson's not about opinions, political views, or bickering. While
> I
> have personally not had problems with censorship, or with Barbra or
> John, if this is indeed a "feel good" list, bent on restricting
> discussions to only those who agree with the points of view of the
> moderators, then can someone point me to a list where the facts
> about
> Parkinson's and related research are the focus?
>
> By the way - thanks to Murray for almost always keeping the focus in
> that direction! :)
>
>
> Wendy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Charles T. Meyer
> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 6:08 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Farewell
>
> THIS IS A SAD  DAY FOR THE LIST.  Bob Fink has announced that he is
> leaving us and there has been no comment on his letter.   In
> addition
> John  Cottingham and  Barb Patterson  have remained silent on the
> issue.  To lose  such  a valued member of the group-  a neurosurgeon
> and  possibly the only practicing MD remaining on the list is indeed
> our
> great loss. And especially  I think, that all it would have taken is
> an
> apology  to cut this off.   Now the ugly specter of censorship hias
> reared its head I am fearful that it will continue with others.
> John
> Cottingham,  I think you are in error by not apologizing to Bob and
> Bob
> while I think you are right to demand an apology rather than
> Censorship
> aren't you taking it a little far by contacting the Board of
> trustees of
> the  Uof T and threatening  a lawsuit for defamation?
>
> Bob and I have disagreed about many things but I have found him to
> be
> thoughtful and courteous and respectful of my point of view.  John
> and
> Barb and I have agreed on most things but I think you are dead wrong
> on
> this one. I can understand that you wish to keep controversy on an
> intellectual basis rather than a personal one and protect the list
> but
> aren't the eggs for the omelet already broken?  Bob is leaving the
> list
> and while I don't intend to leave I will if censorship continues.. I
> think that is what happens when censorship occurs- more and more
> people
> give up contributing and the threads become less and less relevant.
>
> The issues of stem cells and abortion have been the major area where
> Bob
> and I part company.  The issue of when human life begins is what it
> all
> boils down to.  Bob feels that all life regardless of stage or
> semblance
> of humanity is sacred and even though it is growing inside of
> someone
> else it is the moral equivalent of murder to terminate a life no
> matter
> how primitive .  I rationalize this by stating that it more complex
> than
> that and that and in making  the choice to have an abortion one must
> take into account the rights of the mother and the circumstances
> the
> child will be born into.  Nonetheless  if I thought that feeling
> thinking human beings were being killed I would feel it necessary to
> take action to prevent it. as would most of you (I hope).  It comes
> down
> to what we are raised to believe , religion  if I can mention that
> here
> (without censorship)- and how literally one takes the Bible. This is
> a
> sensitive area and will not be settled by any legislation or court
> rulings. With the country being split close to 50-50 neither side
> will
> convince the other especially since the genie is out of the bottle
> now
> and won't be stuffed back in.  Bob -  if you want widespread civil
> disobedience and ignoring of a law along with the tragedy of botched
> abortions you will see a lot of illegal abortion drugs and abortions
> being performed just try and  pass this one
>
> Stem cells I think are quite a different matter since they do not
> have a
> chance of becoming human beings (since they come from IVF)   I feel
> that
> their potential for the relief of suffering and lack of we ever
> potential humanity should make all but the most avid right to lifer
> take
> pause.  Bob, I have a great deal more respect for you and your
> positions
> because you at least considered the difference between abortion and
> stem
> cell research.
>
> Bob,  I wish that you would consider staying with the List but I
> understand if you don't. Please keep in touch with me and others who
> value your opinions.
>
> Charlie
> Charles T. Meyer, MD
> Middleton, WI
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert A. Fink, M. D. wrote:
>
> >I have waited for a number of weeks, this to see if there would be
> any
> >"retreat" on the part of the "Administration" of the Parkinsn List,
> but
> there
> >has been none.  Similarly, my letter of protest to the Academic
> Council
> of the
> >University of Toronto (which hosts the List), has gone unanswered.
> >Therefore, what follows will be my final post to the List (assuming
> that it isn't
> >censored when it comes under "review", the status which I have been
> placed
> >in by Barbara Patterson).
> >
> >This issue began over the discussion of stem cells and the ethics
> related to
> >such.  This matter is no longer the focus of the situation.  The
> electorate of the
> >USA has, by its majority decision to re-elect President Bush,
> chosen
> its
> >national course over the next four years.  My own state,
> California,
> passed
> >Proposition 71 (which I opposed), which has allocated a large sum
> of
> money
> >(from tax revenues) *mandated* to go for stem cell research; money
> which
> >will be diverted from other health-related issues, such as care for
> the
> >underinsured or uninsured population of California.  The voters of
> California
> >have chosen their priorities and will, in my opinion, eventually
> regret
> their
> >choice.
> >
> >The issue which has resulted in my decision to remove myself from
> this
> List
> >is the fact that, back in September, John Cottingham, a co-owner of
> the
> >Parkinsn List, sent a public message which said:
> >
> >"Enough has been said about abortion, legal cases and when life
> begins.
> >It's humorous really that one of the lists' most vehement
> proponents to
> >'Right to Life' also collects fees for removing organs from those
> on
> life
> >support. Never get between someones 'public' persona and their
> livelihood."
> >
> >This was after I, in response to a question raised by another
> Listmember as to
> >whether I supported organ donation, replied that I had indeed,
> worked
> with
> >families of brain-dead individuals in order to help other families
> which
> >needed organs for transplant purposes.  To post words such as
> quoted
> above
> >in a public forum is the worst form of slander.
> >
> >When I persisted in demanding a *public* apology, Barbara's
> response
> was to
> >offer to "chat" on MSN Messenger (I do not use such services
> because
> they
> >are virus-prone and attract Spam), and when I continued to ask for
> that
> >apology, Barbara placed me "on review" (meaning that all of my
> posts
> would
> >be "censored" before they are released to the List.  Since that
> action,
> I have
> >not posted any messages to the Parkinsn List, as I will not
> participate
> in a
> >"censored" List as a matter of principle.
> >
> >During the time that I have been a member of this List (I think
> that it
> has been
> >about 10 years), I have seen much vitriol dispensed.  In the months
> before the
> >recently-completed USA electoral process, there had been many nasty
> and
> >disrespectful postings regarding our president, and other
> governmental
> >officials by Listmembers who disagree with governmental policies.
> The
> >personal attacks by several individuals on the List (you know who
> you
> are)
> >have continued even until now (when the electoral decision is
> history),
> and
> >yet, such people have not been placed "on review".  Similarly,
> other
> >Listmembers, including myself, who asked that the president and
> others
> >elected officials not be made subject to disrespect on the List,
> were
> >themselves placed "on review".
> >
> >When Barbara cited the "rules" as to indications for placing
> members
> "on
> >review", she stated that my disagreement as to the unrestricted use
> of
> >embryonic stem cells for research might negatively affect "fragile
> members of
> >this List", and somehow interfere with their "sense of community".
> When
> >posts such as made by several other members of this List are
> accepted
> (many
> >of them, like John Cottingham's, being personal attacks), it is
> unacceptable to
> >me that my remarks, not directed to an individual, are worthy of
> censorship.
> >
> >The Listowners have every right to construct and maintain their
> List in
> any
> >way that they wish.  If they wish to have a "feelgood" structure,
> where
> people
> >can mainly give emotional support to each other, then that is fine.
>  On
> the
> >other hand, if this List is to be a source of scientific
> information
> concerning
> >Parkinson's and related conditions (and attract participation by
> professionals
> >in the field), it must be understood that some of the information
> obtained may
> >not always be "warm and fuzzy", and that significant controversies
> exist in
> >the field.  I had thought that the "I" in PIEN, stood for
> "information", and that
> >this, along with support, was one of the main objectives of this
> List.
> >
> >In summary, it is my position that John Cottingham, by his remarks
> of
> >September regarding "removing organs from those on life support"
> (his
> >words), has slandered me; and though, in a subsequent note from
> Barbara,
> >John is alleged to have said that his remarks were "humorous", I
> did
> not
> >consider them humorous in any way.  His continued refusal to
> apologize
> (and
> >since the posting was public, I have insisted that the apology
> likewise
> be
> >public), along with Barbara's decision to "penalize the victim",
> tell
> me that I
> >no longer belong on this List.
> >
> >To those with whom I have been associated here for a decade, I wish
> you
> the
> >best of good fortune as you battle, either directly or indirectly,
> with
> >Parkinson's disease.
> >
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >
> >Bob Fink
> >
> >
> >**********************************************
> >Robert A. Fink, M. D., F.A.C.S., P. C.
> >2500 Milvia Street  Suite 222
> >Berkeley, California  94704-2636
> >Telephone:  510-849-2555   FAX:  510-849-2557
> >WWW:  http://www.rafink.com/
> >
> >mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >
> >"Ex Tristitia Virtus"
> >
> >*********************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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