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No Way, Raj.  I don't think we CAN learn to live without him.  He is too
valuable a contributor, and will be missed by many, many people, if he
decides to leave.  I am one, who understands where he is coming from.  I
also, don't always agree with him, but his statements do give me food for
thought, and causes me to do more research.  NOT to prove him wrong, but
to settle the issue in my mind.  He will be missed.  Best wishes, Jo Ann

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 09:57:13 -0400 Brightline
<[log in to unmask]> writes:
> Hi
>     I must have missed Bob's letter that he was leaving and also the
> reasons
> behind his decision to do so.  Never the less, I am sure he will be
> missed,
> even though I did not agree with him or his mode of response to me
> in a
> couple of issues. When I was talking about ayurvedic medicine and
> about
> taking folic acid as a supplement, he came on vehemently against it
> and
> myself personally. This was uncalled for. I am not the one who is
> practicing
> ayurvedic medicine; I am just a patient who is looking out for
> escaping the
> miseries of PD. But, he did not spare any effort to kill the
> messenger.
>     Folic acid supplement is recommended by a lot of nutrition
> experts
> including Dr. Weil. It is very important to maintain low levels of
> homocystiene in our blood, which, if I remember right, is elevated
> in
> patients taking sinemet. He downright called me an idiot for stating
> that I
> was taking folic acid supplement. He stopped abusing me only when I
> sent him
> some references.
>     But, that does not mean we can afford to lose an MD from our
> columns.
>     But then, we have to learn to live without him, I guess.
>     Raj
> ****************
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Charles T. Meyer <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Farewell
>
>
> > THIS IS A SAD  DAY FOR THE LIST.  Bob Fink has announced that he
> is
> > leaving us and there has been no comment on his letter.   In
> addition
> > John  Cottingham and  Barb Patterson  have remained silent on the
> > issue.  To lose  such  a valued member of the group-  a
> neurosurgeon
> > and  possibly the only practicing MD remaining on the list is
> indeed our
> > great loss. And especially  I think, that all it would have taken
> is an
> > apology  to cut this off.   Now the ugly specter of censorship
> hias
> > reared its head I am fearful that it will continue with others.
> John
> > Cottingham,  I think you are in error by not apologizing to Bob
> and Bob
> > while I think you are right to demand an apology rather than
> Censorship
> > aren't you taking it a little far by contacting the Board of
> trustees of
> > the  Uof T and threatening  a lawsuit for defamation?
> >
> > Bob and I have disagreed about many things but I have found him to
> be
> > thoughtful and courteous and respectful of my point of view.  John
> and
> > Barb and I have agreed on most things but I think you are dead
> wrong on
> > this one. I can understand that you wish to keep controversy on an
> > intellectual basis rather than a personal one and protect the list
> but
> > aren't the eggs for the omelet already broken?  Bob is leaving the
> list
> > and while I don't intend to leave I will if censorship continues..
> I
> > think that is what happens when censorship occurs- more and more
> people
> > give up contributing and the threads become less and less
> relevant.
> >
> > The issues of stem cells and abortion have been the major area
> where Bob
> > and I part company.  The issue of when human life begins is what
> it all
> > boils down to.  Bob feels that all life regardless of stage or
> semblance
> > of humanity is sacred and even though it is growing inside of
> someone
> > else it is the moral equivalent of murder to terminate a life no
> matter
> > how primitive .  I rationalize this by stating that it more
> complex than
> > that and that and in making  the choice to have an abortion one
> must
> > take into account the rights of the mother and the circumstances
> the
> > child will be born into.  Nonetheless  if I thought that feeling
> > thinking human beings were being killed I would feel it necessary
> to
> > take action to prevent it. as would most of you (I hope).  It
> comes down
> > to what we are raised to believe , religion  if I can mention that
> here
> > (without censorship)- and how literally one takes the Bible. This
> is a
> > sensitive area and will not be settled by any legislation or court
> > rulings. With the country being split close to 50-50 neither side
> will
> > convince the other especially since the genie is out of the bottle
> now
> > and won't be stuffed back in.  Bob -  if you want widespread civil
> > disobedience and ignoring of a law along with the tragedy of
> botched
> > abortions you will see a lot of illegal abortion drugs and
> abortions
> > being performed just try and  pass this one
> >
> > Stem cells I think are quite a different matter since they do not
> have a
> > chance of becoming human beings (since they come from IVF)   I
> feel that
> > their potential for the relief of suffering and lack of we ever
> > potential humanity should make all but the most avid right to
> lifer take
> > pause.  Bob, I have a great deal more respect for you and your
> positions
> > because you at least considered the difference between abortion
> and stem
> > cell research.
> >
> > Bob,  I wish that you would consider staying with the List but I
> > understand if you don't. Please keep in touch with me and others
> who
> > value your opinions.
> >
> > Charlie
> > Charles T. Meyer, MD
> > Middleton, WI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robert A. Fink, M. D. wrote:
> >
> > >I have waited for a number of weeks, this to see if there would
> be any
> > >"retreat" on the part of the "Administration" of the Parkinsn
> List, but
> there
> > >has been none.  Similarly, my letter of protest to the Academic
> Council
> of the
> > >University of Toronto (which hosts the List), has gone
> unanswered.
> > >Therefore, what follows will be my final post to the List
> (assuming that
> it isn't
> > >censored when it comes under "review", the status which I have
> been
> placed
> > >in by Barbara Patterson).
> > >
> > >This issue began over the discussion of stem cells and the ethics
> related
> to
> > >such.  This matter is no longer the focus of the situation.  The
> electorate of the
> > >USA has, by its majority decision to re-elect President Bush,
> chosen its
> > >national course over the next four years.  My own state,
> California,
> passed
> > >Proposition 71 (which I opposed), which has allocated a large sum
> of
> money
> > >(from tax revenues) *mandated* to go for stem cell research;
> money which
> > >will be diverted from other health-related issues, such as care
> for the
> > >underinsured or uninsured population of California.  The voters
> of
> California
> > >have chosen their priorities and will, in my opinion, eventually
> regret
> their
> > >choice.
> > >
> > >The issue which has resulted in my decision to remove myself from
> this
> List
> > >is the fact that, back in September, John Cottingham, a co-owner
> of the
> > >Parkinsn List, sent a public message which said:
> > >
> > >"Enough has been said about abortion, legal cases and when life
> begins.
> > >It's humorous really that one of the lists' most vehement
> proponents to
> > >'Right to Life' also collects fees for removing organs from those
> on life
> > >support. Never get between someones 'public' persona and their
> livelihood."
> > >
> > >This was after I, in response to a question raised by another
> Listmember
> as to
> > >whether I supported organ donation, replied that I had indeed,
> worked
> with
> > >families of brain-dead individuals in order to help other
> families which
> > >needed organs for transplant purposes.  To post words such as
> quoted
> above
> > >in a public forum is the worst form of slander.
> > >
> > >When I persisted in demanding a *public* apology, Barbara's
> response was
> to
> > >offer to "chat" on MSN Messenger (I do not use such services
> because they
> > >are virus-prone and attract Spam), and when I continued to ask
> for that
> > >apology, Barbara placed me "on review" (meaning that all of my
> posts
> would
> > >be "censored" before they are released to the List.  Since that
> action, I
> have
> > >not posted any messages to the Parkinsn List, as I will not
> participate
> in a
> > >"censored" List as a matter of principle.
> > >
> > >During the time that I have been a member of this List (I think
> that it
> has been
> > >about 10 years), I have seen much vitriol dispensed.  In the
> months
> before the
> > >recently-completed USA electoral process, there had been many
> nasty and
> > >disrespectful postings regarding our president, and other
> governmental
> > >officials by Listmembers who disagree with governmental policies.
>  The
> > >personal attacks by several individuals on the List (you know who
> you
> are)
> > >have continued even until now (when the electoral decision is
> history),
> and
> > >yet, such people have not been placed "on review".  Similarly,
> other
> > >Listmembers, including myself, who asked that the president and
> others
> > >elected officials not be made subject to disrespect on the List,
> were
> > >themselves placed "on review".
> > >
> > >When Barbara cited the "rules" as to indications for placing
> members "on
> > >review", she stated that my disagreement as to the unrestricted
> use of
> > >embryonic stem cells for research might negatively affect
> "fragile
> members of
> > >this List", and somehow interfere with their "sense of
> community".  When
> > >posts such as made by several other members of this List are
> accepted
> (many
> > >of them, like John Cottingham's, being personal attacks), it is
> unacceptable to
> > >me that my remarks, not directed to an individual, are worthy of
> censorship.
> > >
> > >The Listowners have every right to construct and maintain their
> List in
> any
> > >way that they wish.  If they wish to have a "feelgood" structure,
> where
> people
> > >can mainly give emotional support to each other, then that is
> fine.  On
> the
> > >other hand, if this List is to be a source of scientific
> information
> concerning
> > >Parkinson's and related conditions (and attract participation by
> professionals
> > >in the field), it must be understood that some of the information
> obtained may
> > >not always be "warm and fuzzy", and that significant
> controversies exist
> in
> > >the field.  I had thought that the "I" in PIEN, stood for
> "information",
> and that
> > >this, along with support, was one of the main objectives of this
> List.
> > >
> > >In summary, it is my position that John Cottingham, by his
> remarks of
> > >September regarding "removing organs from those on life support"
> (his
> > >words), has slandered me; and though, in a subsequent note from
> Barbara,
> > >John is alleged to have said that his remarks were "humorous", I
> did not
> > >consider them humorous in any way.  His continued refusal to
> apologize
> (and
> > >since the posting was public, I have insisted that the apology
> likewise
> be
> > >public), along with Barbara's decision to "penalize the victim",
> tell me
> that I
> > >no longer belong on this List.
> > >
> > >To those with whom I have been associated here for a decade, I
> wish you
> the
> > >best of good fortune as you battle, either directly or
> indirectly, with
> > >Parkinson's disease.
> > >
> > >
> > >Sincerely,
> > >
> > >
> > >Bob Fink
> > >
> > >
> > >**********************************************
> > >Robert A. Fink, M. D., F.A.C.S., P. C.
> > >2500 Milvia Street  Suite 222
> > >Berkeley, California  94704-2636
> > >Telephone:  510-849-2555   FAX:  510-849-2557
> > >WWW:  http://www.rafink.com/
> > >
> > >mailto:[log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >"Ex Tristitia Virtus"
> > >
> > >*********************************************
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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