RAY, I believe I follow the religion of the Bible as best as I can and I rely on the grace of Jesus for the rest..A man naned, Thomas Campbell of the 19th century said on one occasion: "speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where it is silent" At 08:41 PM 3/21/2005, you wrote: >Dave > >What I was referring to was the theological beliefs of the various >religions, e.g. Buddhists don't believe in God, Jews don't believe Christ >was the Son of God, Christians do, Mormons believe in a god of flesh and >bone although they differ on ESCR (Senator Orrin Hatch and my cousin). > >Episcopalians for some reason seem to favor stem cell research (Senator >McCain and my old high school friend) Stem cells weren't around when >these religions started so there is a difference of opinion among >religions, but I do think the core beliefs stay the same I don't think >you can be a Muslim and not believe in Allah. If you were a Christian >Scientist or follower of Ernest Holmes Religious Science you would believe >you could cure yourself. >My best friend, a Christian Scientist, who just died of cancer supported >stem cell research and thought there was nothing wrong with having an >abortion. I don't think these positions had anything to do with CS as >Mary Baker Eddy never addressed them. In the end my friend went with >aggressive chemo which I never understood. > >I think the various religions are in the process maybe of establishing >their positions on the SC issue. The main opposition seems to be coming >from Catholics and evangelicals according to Diane W's posts to me. > >What faith do you follow Dave? >Ray >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Morerland" <[log in to unmask]> >To: <[log in to unmask]> >Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:04 PM >Subject: Re: Moral certainty re science and religion > > >>Ray >>f I thought that religion never change and was not self correcting. I >>would not be hanging around I have coffee with our Pastor >>at least once each week and i would like to think that i have helped to >>change his mind on a lot of issues that are near and dear >>to you and me, he believes that he must grow in personal views and >>his sermons reflect his growth. the only exception are the >>sacraments. >> >> >>Yours and His >> >>David L Moreland >> >> >>10:11 AM 3/19/2005, you wrote: >>>Wendy\\ >>> >>>Science is self-correcting, example, quantum physics and chaos science >>>tells us more than classical physics and are improvements. Religion is >>>not self-correcting that is why it is different from science. Science >>>searches for truth - religion has found it. >>>Yep, I'm sure of this. >>>Ray >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wendy Siegel" <[log in to unmask]> >>>To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 2:51 PM >>>Subject: Re: Moral certainty >>> >>> >>>>Ray: >>>>Are you CERTAIN about that? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself!) Science >>>>once taught the earth was flat. Things that science has PROVEN are being >>>>dis-proven every day. >>>> >>>>Wendy >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network >>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of rayilynlee >>>>Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 12:12 PM >>>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>>Subject: Re: Moral certainty >>>> >>>>Moral certainty is the cause of wars, bigotry, intolerance and much >>>>suffering. The person who is certain he is right about as yet >>>>unanswerable questions is a tremendous obstacle to progress. >>>>Education >>>>teaches you how much you don't know and defines the boundaries of >>>>your >>>>knowledge. >>>> >>>>My education tells me a cell is a cell and there is good reason to >>>>call >>>>it a cell, not a person. I need to hear some good reasons why a cell >>>>is >>>>a person to change my mind, not ooh don't name-call. >>>> >>>>Rayilyn Brown, MA major History. minor Philosophy, UCLA >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Ned Gardner" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:25 PM >>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>> >>>> >>>>>Don: >>>>> >>>>>Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more >>>>>uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is >>>>right >>>>>and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the >>>>work >>>>>of >>>>>men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have >>>>whooped >>>>>them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always >>>>>skeptical and tolerant. >>>>>-- H. L. Mencken, Minority Report (1956) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Ned >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Don Mckinley" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 2:32 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>-------Original Message------- >>>>>> >>>>>>From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network >>>>>>Date: 03/15/05 02:07:15 >>>>>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>>> >>>>>>Ned: >>>>>>What is "the wrong turn" is just a matter of opinion, not fact, but I >>>>>>can see this discussion is leading nowhere, and the problem of >>>>finding a >>>>>>way to come to consensus continues. :( If you would like to continue >>>>>>this discussion, I think we should take it off the list, but I think >>>>it >>>>>>is a waste of time. >>>>>> >>>>>>Wendy >>>>>> >>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network >>>>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ned Gardner >>>>>>Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 7:28 AM >>>>>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>>> >>>>>>Wendy: >>>>>> >>>>>>What would that compromise be? Either we do all that is necessary to >>>>>>end PD >>>>>>or we continue being led down the path taking all the wrong turns >>>>being >>>>>>lead by those who's primary symbol they march behind is one of >>>>capitol >>>>>>punishment. ( the cross ) >>>>>> >>>>>> Ned >>>>>> >>>>>>wendy NED WE NEED TO WORK TO GETER WHO IS RIGHT I DON'T KNOW I BEEN >>>>>>FIGHTING PD FOR 35 YEARS I DO WHAT IT TAKES TO BEAT IT I DON'T ASK >>>>GOD >>>>>>TO >>>>>>FIGHT IT FOR ME BUT BELIVE IN GOD GOD I DO NOT UNDER STAND WHAT IS >>>>THE >>>>>>TROUBEL I AASK NO HEL I DO FOR MY SELF BUT AM HEAR TO HELP ANY ONE. >>>>THERE >>>>>>IS >>>>>>NO ONE ON THE PD LIST I HAVE EVER BAD M MOUTH WE HAVE EMAIL TO FOR >>>>THAT >>>>>>LETS >>>>>>HELP EACH OTHER SO EMAIL NOT LIST TO COMPLAIN WE ARE TO HELP ONE AND >>>>>>OTHER >>>>>>[log in to unmask] Original Message ----- >>>>>>From: "Wendy Siegel" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 12:17 PM >>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Hi Ned! >>>>>>>I understand your point, but I don't know if I agree. I am very much >>>>>>an >>>>>>>independent thinker, and I find pros and cons to any side. Just >>>>>>because >>>>>>>I am not in the church at this time in my life doesn't mean that I >>>>>>won't >>>>>>>be in the future. It is just not something I feel I need at this >>>>time, >>>>>>>but who knows what tomorrow will bring? I know people whom I admire >>>>>>who >>>>>>>are in the church, and sometimes even independent thinkers need what >>>>>>>being part of a group can provide. There is strength in numbers, and >>>>>>if >>>>>>>we (PWP) could ever compromise and pursue a common goal, just think >>>>>>what >>>>>>>could be accomplished! :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Wendy >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network >>>>>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ned Gardner >>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 7:56 AM >>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Wendy: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Am I correct when say your independent thinking has led you to not >>>>>>join >>>>>>>a >>>>>>>church, and also have the ability of interpreting the intent of my >>>>>>>thought >>>>>>>process? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ned >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>From: "Wendy Siegel" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:51 AM >>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Ned: >>>>>>>>Belonging to a church does not preclude someone from being an >>>>>>>>independent self informed thinker. One way to effectively >>>>communicate >>>>>>>>might be to stop calling names and assuming that you are better or >>>>>>>>smarter than they are. By the way, I don't belong to a church, but >>>>I >>>>>>>do >>>>>>>>believe in a higher power. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Wendy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network >>>>>>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ned Gardner >>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:02 AM >>>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Peggy: >>>>>>>>Please remember when referring to the "church herd" >>>>>>>>it could never include an independent self informed thinker such >>>>as >>>>>>>>your >>>>>>>>self. What are your thoughts on how to effectively >>>>>>>>communicate with the church herd. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Ned >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>From: "Peggy Willocks" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 9:39 AM >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Ned >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Please remember when referring to the anti-abortionists as the >>>>>>>"church >>>>>>>>>herd," that not all of the herd is created equal. I am part of >>>>the >>>>>>>>church >>>>>>>>>herd, but DO NOT agree with the present stand on stem cell usage. >>>>>>>And >>>>>>>>>regardless of what anybody says, one CAN be pro-life and an >>>>advocate >>>>>>>>of >>>>>>>>>stem >>>>>>>>>cells simultaneously. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(See an article done a while back - >>>>http://www.parkinsons-information-exchange-network-online.com/parkmail1/ >>>>>>>>2003c/msg00091.html ) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Peggy >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>From: Ned Gardner >>>>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:03 AM >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Rayilynlee: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>The church herd would rather see aborted material go straight to >>>>the >>>>>>>>>incinerator rather than used for any stem cell research. You see >>>>>>>this >>>>>>>>>deprives the woman of any >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>possibility of feeling that something good can come from >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>her choice. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Ned >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>From: "rayilynlee" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 10:54 PM >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Dee >>>>>>>>>>These same people are also doing other evil things besides >>>>opposing >>>>>>>>ESCR >>>>>>>>>>and >>>>>>>>>>NT. I tell you we are entering a terrible period of history. >>>>>>>>>>Ray >>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>From: "Dolores Buente" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>>>Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 7:53 AM >>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Dear Jennifer, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I share in your frustration. It seems that we are living >>>>through >>>>>>>an >>>>>>>>>>>important chapter in medical and moral history. Later, when >>>>this >>>>>>>>period >>>>>>>>>>>is recorded, >>>>>>>>>>>it will likely be compared to past practices and beliefs such as >>>>>>>the >>>>>>>>>>>Salem >>>>>>>>>>>witch hunts and the persecution of people who were labeled >>>>>>heretics >>>>>>>>>>>because they >>>>>>>>>>>declared that the world is round. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>History shows us that it often takes much effort and bravery to >>>>>>>>advance >>>>>>>>>>>society forward. Look back at the struggle of individuals who >>>>>>>fought >>>>>>>>for >>>>>>>>>>>the right >>>>>>>>>>>of family planning. They faced the wrath of those people and >>>>>>>>>>>institutions >>>>>>>>>>>who declared it sinful to practice birth control. The same >>>>people >>>>>>>>and >>>>>>>>>>>institutions who today declare it sinful to use cells in a >>>>petrii >>>>>>>>dish >>>>>>>>>>>to >>>>>>>>>>>alleviate >>>>>>>>>>>pain and suffering. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Dee >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>>> >>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>> >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>>> >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>mailto:[log in to unmask] >>In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] >In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn