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Thank you, Ray, My li'l attempt at being a profound ponderer was blown away by your few words that say it all. Life does seem just that transitory. In 'Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy (Douglas Adams), without notice, the earth is bulldozed to make way for a new, intergalactic superhighway. The mystery keeps me going. Things we don't know. After you've been around awhile, it ceases to be about looking pretty, being successful, comfortable, fame, fortune, power. Those things we know about. They are more transitory than life itself. It's the unknown that attracts people of every belief. And we've only scratched the surface. Have a good day. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "rayilynlee" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Moral certainty > Rick > I like the medieval mystic Meister Eckhardt's little story about life > being like a bird flying into a room from where we don't know and out the > window to we don't know where either > Ray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick McGirr" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:44 AM > Subject: Re: Moral certainty > > > > Well... > > > > In the times when John's Revelation was written, man had no idea that > > we are flying thru space on a tiny speck of dust, on the outer arm of > > a spiral galaxy, in a universe that has uncounted millions of > > galaxies. Further, his prediction of a fiery conflagration as the > > last chapter of earth's history will only come true if enough of us > > believe the story. But if it happens, WWIII on earth will be an > > indiscernable blip on the energy scope for most of the universe. > > > > Science doesn't know much more than John about the end of the > > universe. We are like travelers who woke up in the middle of a bus > > trip to find our bus has busted the guardrail and is airborne. We're > > trying to figure out what happened. But at least we are not jumping > > to conclusions. > > > > Is science uncommon? It's becoming moreso in these days of religious > > fervor. But it shouldn't be. People don't know it, but we all use > > the scientific method several times a day. But there's a point at > > which people's beliefs get in the way, and the scientific method is > > abandoned, in order to avoid the pain of discovery. > > > > I think it is wise to have assumptions, rather than set-in-stone > > beliefs. I try, humbly, to live each day based on the preponderance > > of evidence, to put it clumsily. > > > > That's a little of what I think. What do you think? > > > > Enjoy! > > Rick McGirr > > Email: [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ned Gardner" <[log in to unmask]> > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 5:46 PM > > Subject: Re: Moral certainty > > > > > >> Rick: > >> > >> What is scientific about common sense? > >> > >> By definition it is only common. > >> > >> Science and religion do agree that the > >> end of the "she-bang" will be rather warm. > >> > >> What do you think? > >> > >> Ned > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Rick McGirr" <[log in to unmask]> > >> To: <[log in to unmask]> > >> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:13 PM > >> Subject: Re: Moral certainty > >> > >> > >> > As a matter of fact, I take great comfort in the fact that my > > beliefs > >> > are verifiable, and refutable, through the scientific method (also > >> > known as common sense). There is nothing truly permanent in the > >> > universe, including the whole she-"bang" itself. And that is the > > true > >> > source of humility. > >> > > >> > Rick > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Ned Gardner" <[log in to unmask]> > >> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > >> > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 1:59 PM > >> > Subject: Re: Moral certainty > >> > > >> > > >> >> Ray: > >> >> > >> >> Reasonable doubt; moral certainty > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> When one is "beyond doubt" or an issue has been settled "beyond > >> > doubt," it > >> >> means that certainty has been established to such a degree that > >> > there can be > >> >> no question whatsoever of the truth. On almost every question, > > the > >> > only > >> >> people who claim to be 100% beyond doubt are gods, egotists, and > >> > fanatics. > >> >> Mature people generally allow for the possibility, however slim, > >> > that what > >> >> they Know for Certain may be disproved. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> REASONABLE DOUBT -- ".refers to the degree of certainty required > > of > >> > a juror > >> >> before he or she can make a legally valid determination of the > > guilt > >> > of a > >> >> criminal defendant.The term doesn't require that the evidence be > > so > >> > clear > >> >> that no possibility of error exists; it means that the evidence > > must > >> > be so > >> >> conclusive that all reasonable doubts are removed from the mind > > of > >> > the > >> >> ordinary person. See also moral certainty." > >> >> > >> >> "MORAL CERTAINTY -- certainty beyond a reasonable doubt; a > >> > conviction based > >> >> on persuasive reasons and excluding doubts that a contrary > >> > conclusion can > >> >> exit. A juror is said to be morally certain of a fact when he or > > she > >> > would > >> >> act in reliance upon its truth in matters of greatest importance > > to > >> > himself > >> >> or herself." > >> >> > >> >> "REASONABLE MAN (OR PERSON) -- a phrase used to denote a > >> > hypothetical person > >> >> who exercises qualities of attention, knowledge, intelligence and > >> > judgment > >> >> that society requires of its members for the protection of their > > own > >> >> interests and the interests of others." > >> >> > >> >> Ned > >> >> > >> >> From http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_ > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "rayilynlee" <[log in to unmask]> > >> >> To: <[log in to unmask]> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 12:11 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: Moral certainty > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Moral certainty is the cause of wars, bigotry, intolerance > > and > >> > much > >> >> > suffering. The person who is certain he is right about as > > yet > >> >> > unanswerable questions is a tremendous obstacle to progress. > >> > Education > >> >> > teaches you how much you don't know and defines the > >> > boundaries of > >> >> > your > >> >> > knowledge. > >> >> > > >> >> > My education tells me a cell is a cell and there is good > > reason > >> > to call > >> >> > it a cell, not a person. I need to hear some good reasons > > why > >> > a cell > >> >> > is > >> >> > a person to change my mind, not ooh don't name-call. > >> >> > > >> >> > Rayilyn Brown, MA major History. minor Philosophy, UCLA > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: "Ned Gardner" <[log in to unmask]> > >> >> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:25 PM > >> >> > Subject: Re: Souls in limbo > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >> Don: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The > >> > more > >> >> >> uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely > > what > >> > is > >> >> >> right > >> >> >> and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has > > been > >> > the work > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who > >> > have > >> >> >> whooped > >> >> >> them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is > >> > always > >> >> >> skeptical and tolerant. > >> >> >> -- H. L. Mencken, Minority Report (1956) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Ned > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> From: "Don Mckinley" <[log in to unmask]> > >> >> >> To: <[log in to unmask]> > >> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 2:32 PM > >> >> >> Subject: Re: Souls in limbo > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > - > >> > -- > >> >> To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: > >> > mailto:[log in to unmask] > >> >> In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > -- > >> > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: > >> > mailto:[log in to unmask] > >> > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > -- > >> To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: > > mailto:[log in to unmask] > >> In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > >> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: > > mailto:[log in to unmask] > > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn