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Intelligent design scientists use the scientific methods. They went to the big important universities. But the evolutionists don't let the intelligent design papers be printed in their journals, and encourage the public to believe that they just follow myths. "Facts" have been known to change as more information is learned. The earth is not flat, etc. Facts are seen and interpreted by the philosophy's of the beholder. Neither intelligent design nor evolution can be tested by scientific method. No one has been able to see macro-evolution at work, or reproduce it in the laboratories. The missing links are still missing. Lots of micro-evolution is seen, like all the varieties of dogs, but they are still dogs. The peppered moth is still a moth. Not any slight change to be something else. Both evolution and intelligent design see the results of what has happened on the earth and we put those results into our theories, keeping what fits and trying to figure out what doesn't. Steven Jay Gould, one of Harvard's eminent scientists had suggested that evolutionist not debate intelligent design scientists because they usually lose. Intelligent design does use scientific methods. They can't assume anything or the label that they believe fables might be true. On the other hand, when you read the textbooks, they are peppered with "probably", "could be", "might have" when they are talking about evolution. All the dating methods start with the assumption that everything has continued on as it was in the beginning, however there are signs of too much oxygen, etc. in the past, hence the 3 ft. dragonflies, and other huge plants and animals found in the fossil beds. Obviously the environment has changed. The geologic column isn't found anywhere on earth except in the textbooks. It was thought up with evolution in mind. The fossils are dated by the rocks they are found in, and the rocks are dated by which fossils are in them, circular reasoning. (Some of those "fossils" have been found alive today like the coelacanth fish, somewhat ruining the idea that the rocks they are found in may not be that old.) Carbon 14 has dated living mollusks as being dead for 2300 years. Fresh seal skins dated at 1,300. And even in the textbooks, the geologic column has very little life in the Precambrian level, and suddenly there are all sorts of complex creatures in the Cambrian level. Where did they come from? The evolutionists aren't that magnanimous a bunch. They have their ideas and they are sticking to them. There are some good evolutionary scientists, that see logical problems with the Big Bang. They aren't working on the right track so they get very little press from the big boys". What has this to do with PD? Just you have to think for yourself. Science is very political. While we are at trying to find money for PD research, why don't we get some of the AIDS money? I guess it's to political. Paula rayilynlee <[log in to unmask]> wrote: KF has taken the time and trouble to explain the scientific method and how science works. It would be so helpful if others took the time and trouble to READ what he has said. It seems to me science is the "business" of obtaining better and better understanding of what is I get that it explains how things work, is descriptive, predictive and self-correcting. Religion and faith are limiting and dogmatic - you have to believe a certain way and go through amazing mental gymnastics to make the facts fit what you already believe is true..Science could cause you to change your mind, but not religion. The existence or non-existence of God is not a question for science, but for a comparative religion or philosophy class like Metaphysics where I wrote a paper on Kant's arguments for the existence of God. However, even in Metaphysics you ended up with math....ideas had letters like a, b, c, and you had formulas because the ideas were complicated.. When I taught Advanced Placement History I peppered my very smart students with questions about the 'why' of science and math because my science background was so skimpy. They always said, "It just is, Miss Brown." We will never be able to discuss or debate these issues unless you understand the kind of truth science deals with. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "K. F. Etzold" To: Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 9:29 PM Subject: Re: The Scientific Method and intelligent design > Paula Nixon wrote: > >>Dear Ray >>When Darwin first started talking about Evolution, it sounded very >>rational that life evolved from the simple cell which was thought to be a >>jelly like mass of protoplasm with a nucleus. I remember drawing those in >>school. Now we know there is no such thing as a simple cell, it is a >>single cell. In 1963 Dr. George Palade of the Rockerfeller Institute in >>NY, discovered it was an amazingly intricate system of incredibly fine >>tubes and chain of minute bags that totally permeate the entire cell. To >>summary your 10 pages of the "simple cell" It has structural design, >>energy generators, invasion guards , transport systems, food factories, >>waste disposal systems, protective barriers, communication links within >>and without the cell city that it is. Just the "skin" of the cell is >>amazing. It controls the entry and exit of everything for the cell, >>almost as if it had a chemical sense of taste as it grabs or rejects the >>needed nutrients into the cell by forming a little "finger"! > ! >> that >> reaches out and pulls the needed nutrient inside. Then there is the DNA >> and RNA! Science hasn't a clue how this could have just happened, but >> they don't say that in the schools or in science books, or if they do it >> is very low keyed. It couldn't have just happened. >> >>There was a quote I read once, that I can't find when I need it, that >>said, "Evolution expects us to believe the unbelievable, but to do >>otherwise is to believe in a Creator and that is unacceptable." >>Paula >> > Paula: > > Just because the scientific community does not know everything does not > imply or force us to speculate on intelligent design. Any scientist > worth his salt will readily "admit" that his/her knowledge is limited. > The leap from this is unjustified and illogic. Had scientists made that > leap all scientific progress would have stopped, because there is no > more knowledge to obtain. > A basic tenet is that our understanding of nature is always incomplete > and that we must strive for further knowledge. If we had accepted the > scientific knowledge of say 200 years ago > there would be a faith based understanding of, for instance, the cell > but no modern medicine no modern biology. Indeed our present society is > inconceivable had we accepted the '"final" knowledge of 200 years ago. > > The details of the construction of the cell is just what I described in > my article on science: The knowledge was refined but that does not > change our basic understanding. Just because something is complicated > does not imply intelligent design. The little finger you describe has > some man made analogs. Chemistry can now construct molecules at will > with specific properties (such as a little finger). But I would argue > that these molecules were not created by God. Most pharmacological > products were designed that way and in fact the latest Nobel prize nin > Chemistry rewards such a new process. If one did not know how this was > arrived at one could readily argue it was intelligent design. > > K. 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