I've also followed this 5 PE discussion with interest.
My parental anecdote: My naive query, of my then-Grade 5 son who had
copied two articles on Tasmanian Devils of out encyclopedias, about a
thesis or purpose produced his assured response that the only point of
the writing and "research" was the copying, and why would I want to
complicate an assignment?
That experience, in too many ways, resembles my starting point for
teaching beginning writing in university. Asking, even expecting, any
student to think rhetorically is to complicate experiences with reading
and writing. What I see as an enduring challenge, semester to semester,
is to help students recognize that writing matters. This means that all
of those rhetorical concerns of authority, invention, arrangement,
audience, purpose, are significant for each writing. The difficult news
for students is that the formula of the 5PE and patched in sources
doesn't work. The good news is that once students recognize they can
contribute to a situation with writing that matters they also recognize
they power they hold. That confidence is better than somewhat
superstitious use of forms and sources.
Rhonda
>>> [log in to unmask] 11/8/2005 10:11 AM >>>
I've been following the discussion on the 5pe with interest, and
support
Russ especially in asking how we deal with Don Murray's "writing
writing." Perhaps Russ's "modest discussion" of his daughter's
success triggered my thoughts.
Since the 5pe and plagiarism are often taught in the same arhetorical
context, I see many of the same issues arise in discussion about
citing
sources to "avoid plagiarism. " If we discuss writing as a rhetorical
act, both discussions of short essays and discussions of citing
sources
become discussions of persuasive writing. In that context the issue
of
citing sources becomes a matter of citing authorities to support an
argument rather than citing authorities to avoid charges of
plagiarism.
And the style of citing the sources changes, from relegating
authorities
to parenthetical or footnote matter to highlighting the authorities in
the main text itself.
Cheers,
Henry
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Henry A. Hubert, Ph.D.
Department of English and Modern Languages
Thompson Rivers University
P.O. Box 3010
Kamloops, B. C. V2C 5N3
Telephone: (250) 828-5236
Fax: (250) 371-5510
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
|
>>> [log in to unmask] 11/08/05 4:03 am >>>
_My_ daughter (he said modestly) will be getting her Ph.D. from UBC in
two weeks in physiological psych. A central reason for this, she says,
is that she figured out as an undergraduate how to write a solid,
authoritative (and authoritative-sounding) literature review. She
figured it out from reading them, because she read them as rhetorical
moves.
My fear about the 5pe business is just precisely this:
> one student said he knew it didn't really work even as he used it,
> but he said he was used to his writing not working in that way, and
> usually it was "fine".
Rob's student has learned that "fine" means "approved" -- even though
it "doesn't work." Don Murray used to call that "writing writing."
It's not _due to_ the 5pe; it's not even exactly _due to_ contextless
class production of textoids (after all people who do that _do_ learn
to write, some of them). But the more we focus on the production of
approvable textoids, the less we help the folks who really need our
help.
> I've also been watching my son in grade 8. He's learning the 5pe
> now. I only hope that the school system will move him beyond it to
> that more flexible "thesis-based argument"
I'm not optimistic. The folks who learn this, I think, tend to learn
it outside of school. Rick says,
> (I realize, of course, that if I were teaching the way Russ
advocates,
> this problem probably wouldn't arise.)
Unfortunately it would, and does, because responding to a real
rhetorical exigency doesn't happen easily, if you're not used either
to reading or writing rhetorically. I advocate teaching the way I do
not because it works (cures rhetorical deafness) but because it just
makes more sense. It doesn't, though, to most students, who really
want me to set the assignment, correct their papers, and get on with
it.
-- Russ
Russell Hunt
Department of English
St. Thomas University
http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/
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