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I use the term "blastocyst" whenever possible; I understand it is technically a "pre-embryo". "Embryo" falsely conjures up some kind of entity from which cells can be torn and has been very costly in getting the public to understand what we are talking about. This unfortunate appellation has allowed opponents of ESCR to confuse it with the abortion issue. Apparently the IVF clinics don't consider it to be a person as they dispose of the extras without penalty or much fanfare. There is no big movement to shut down IVF clinics. Are those thousands of blastocysts to all be adopted, thrown away, stored forever? What should happen to them? Why is research not pro-life? I really believe if people could see what we are talking about they would favor ESCR. I don't consider a blastocyst to be any more sacred than a sperm or an egg and all of them don't become people and they also contain DNA. I still see fetuses and "tiny humans" referred to on the internet by opponents when they blast ESCR. KF Etzold's comments are helpful in understanding this problem as are Dr. Slattery's. Ray Rayilyn Brown Director AZNPF Arizona Chapter National Parkinson Foundation [log in to unmask] -------------------------------------------------- From: "K. F. Etzold" <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:43 PM To: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: When does life begin? > This listing of the various opinions on when life begins demonstrates the > futility of attempting to define the beginning (of life). > So rather than forcing religious or other concepts on this (each with > their own historical or other time line) it seems to me that if > one has to make a decision it is essentially arbitrary for legal purposes > (and in some cases ethical). But in all cases it > should apparent that the decision is just that, because a hard separation > line does not exist. So once the essentially artificial > line is drawn, legally or otherwise, we must adhere to it. > > A difficulty arises when different people draw different lines. The lines > drawn by the Catholic church and the State are different > and that gives rise to discussion and dispute, but it is not a discussion > about life. It is more about an emotional resonance which > can be different for different people, hence the discussion and dispute, > but it is really about non-intersecting universes. > > K. F. cg Carline > > > [log in to unmask] wrote: >> When several large bills come through the post together ? >> >> Quoting rayilynlee <[log in to unmask]>: >> >> >>> Medical Controversy - When Does Life Begin? >>> May 10, 2009 | By Sajid Surve, DOcloseSajid Surve, DO Name: Sajid Surve >>> Site: http://brainblogger.com >>> >>> About: Dr. Sajid Surve is a physiatrist, acupuncturist, and osteopath >>> who specializes in musculoskeletal medicine and integrative medicine. | >>> >>> One of the most contested questions in history is a seemingly simple >>> one: When does life begin? Different cultures and societies have battled >>> to answer this question, and to date no consensus has been reached. Of >>> course, the answer to this question has profound ethical, legal, moral, >>> and philosophical implications. As the United States debates the merits >>> and pitfalls of topics like embryonic stem cell research and abortion, >>> the arguments for the beginnings of life have found themselves renewed. >>> Along the timeline from preconception through birth and beyond, there >>> are several stops where one group or another has drawn a line in the >>> sand and proclaimed >>> >>> that life has officially begun. In the interest of providing some >>> clarity on >>> >>> this issue, let us examine the rationale behind why these groups picked >>> their points. As a reference, a textbook on developmental biology will >>> provide some framework. >>> >>> Preconception >>> The earliest stopping point is held by many members of the Catholic >>> Church, with their proclamation that "every sperm is sacred." The held >>> rationale is that every sperm has the possibility to fertilize an egg, >>> become implanted, and eventually grow into a human being. Since God's >>> charge is to go forth and procreate, any type of hindrance to that >>> process such as the use of condoms or birth control pills are >>> interfering with God's plan and therefore >>> >>> not allowed. >>> >>> Conception >>> The greater religious community generally view the "moment of >>> conception" as >>> >>> the standard for when life begins. However, the definition of conception >>> is subject to variability. Some take the word conception to actually >>> mean the act of ejaculation. Others consider conception to be the >>> process of fertilization. Still others consider the fusion of genetic >>> material into a new set of chromosomes to be meant by conception. The >>> problem with any of these definitions is that the process is not >>> instantaneous. From the time of >>> >>> ejaculation, sperm take 7 hours before they become active and able to >>> fertilize an egg. Once the sperm meets the egg, a chemical cascade >>> begins and the sperm begins to bore its way through the egg, which may >>> take up to an hour. Once the sperm actually enters the egg, it's another >>> 12 hours before the sperm DNA makes its way to the egg's DNA, and then >>> another 24 hours for the restructuring and packaging process of new >>> chromosomes. All told, the "moment of conception" could take anywhere >>> from 2-3 days to complete. >>> >>> Gastrulation >>> Another argument that is raised against the "moment of conception" line >>> of thinking is the twinning argument. Once the genetic material is >>> completely packaged together, a new individual is created. However, for >>> as long as 12-14 days afterward, the embryo can split into twins or more >>> multiples. That process would create more than one individual with >>> identical genetic material from the same moment of conception. To >>> account for this discrepancy, some argue that life begins at >>> gastrulation, which is when the window has closed, the embryo has >>> implanted in the uterus, and is now committed to grow into one human >>> being. Supporters of this theory would therefore support stem cell >>> research, which harvests embryos that have neither the intention nor >>> ability to be implanted into a uterus. >>> >>> Week 8 >>> The eighth week of pregnancy is a special one, because at this point the >>> precursors to all organs have been formed. Philosophers therefore argue >>> that >>> >>> with the beginnings of a brain, the fetus now has the ability to think >>> and react, and that marks the onset of life. Opponents argue that the >>> rudimentary nervous system is not functional at 8 weeks, and the fetus >>> cannot process information or move in response to a stimulus, therefore >>> not making the fetus alive. >>> >>> Quickening >>> Those same groups which argue against the week 8 model suggest that life >>> begins with the "quickening," which is when the fetus begins to exhibit >>> voluntary movement inside the womb, usually around 14-16 weeks. At this >>> point the fetus is able to react to external stimuli, which is held as >>> the standard for life. >>> >>> Week 20 >>> Although the fetus can move at week 14, the movements are little more >>> than jerky reflexes. They are not driven by higher cortical functioning. >>> Therefore, another school of thought is that life begins at week 20, >>> when the thalamus is completely formed. The thalamus is the relay center >>> of the brain, and helps to connect the cerebral cortex to the spinal >>> cord and peripheral nerves. >>> >>> Week 25 >>> A sizable contingent would assert that life begins at 25 weeks. The >>> rationale for this starting point is based on our definition of death. >>> The definition of death is not disputed, and is considered the time when >>> electroencephalography (EEG) activity ceases. EEG measures brain >>> activity and must demonstrate regular wave patterns to be considered >>> valid. Therefore, by this rule the onset of life would be the time when >>> fetal brain >>> >>> activity begins to exhibit regular wave patterns, which occurs fairly >>> consistently around week 25. Previous to that time, the EEG only shows >>> small >>> >>> bursts of activity without sustained firing of neurons. >>> >>> Birth >>> Perhaps the second-most frequently held conviction is that life begins >>> at the time of child birth. In Jewish Talmudic Law, for example, the >>> writing states that once the head of the child is delivered it cannot be >>> touched and >>> >>> is granted equal rights to life as the mother. Other religious groups >>> maintain that the soul is delivered to the newborn with their first >>> breath of air. >>> >>> Self-consciousness >>> A minor group of philosophers maintain that the criterion for human life >>> is self-consciousness, or self-awareness, which does not occur until >>> well into childhood. This group believes that abortion is morally >>> equivalent to infanticide, and that both are condonable under certain >>> circumstances. Their >>> >>> viewpoint is extreme, and has generally been rejected by mainstream >>> ethicists and theologians. >>> >>> While this accounting is by no means comprehensive, and perhaps >>> oversimplifies some concepts for the purpose of clarity, let it serve as >>> a starting point for obtaining more information. With debate on this >>> topic wide open, and no clear answers in sight, the best hope is to >>> understand all >>> >>> viewpoints and draw an informed conclusion as to when life begins. >>> >>> Reference >>> Gilbert, Scott F. DevBio, a Companion to Developmental Biology, Eighth >>> Edition. Sinauer Associates Inc., March 2006. Chapter 2, subsection 1. >>> >>> Rayilyn Brown >>> Director AZNPF >>> Arizona Chapter National Parkinson Foundation >>> [log in to unmask] >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >>> mailto:[log in to unmask] >>> In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------- >> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] >> In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn >> >> >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] > In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn