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Dave, I'm not even sure that we should view life as having a beginning and an end. Without being a scholar in the necessary fields of study, there is only so much value in my opinions. I surely respect your opinions as they converge and differ from mine. DNA is wonderful stuff. I'm not too sure, but I think genetic code figures in the earliest stages of human development. People get their genes from what is thought of as two different sources, but cloning changes that, doesn't it? Cloning tech also seems to be part of the discussion in how stem cells are acquired. In any case, I don't have a problem with it, answers or no. I'm not sure how clear the lines can be if we still struggle to express our differing concerns. After the whole thing is hashed out, I am willing to make a prediction that we will discover much more in common than what separates us. I do have a vague memory of the discussion around this product you brought forward. I'd be interested if you could once more post some sites or studies, so that I could read up on it. Thanks. Rick McGirr -----Original Message----- From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David McMurray Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:12 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Lets talk about ESC Mania! Hi Rick; When I first responded to the comments concerning the OK politician, it was because I too, thought his proposal was ridiculous. I didn't realize that Meg had been the brunt of some radical's actions. But when Ray said let's discuss the issue, I subsequently asked those questions. I don't know Dr. Prentice, and used his testimony in the context of supporting gov't. and other entity's documentation. His credibility shouldn't be the issue if those are legitimate questions based on scientific conclusion. The reason I asked questions is because I am not qualified to answer any of them. So far, there has been no one who has answered questions 1--6, with supporting documentation. Are those questions true or false? I respect your opinion on when a human being begins life. But at the moment of conception, it is my understanding that an incredible event occurs; a one of a kind stamp that will carry that individual's identity from that moment and will survive his or her own death: DNA. Am I wrong, does DNA come along sometime later in the development of the "fetus"? If there is science that refutes my understanding of when DNA is established, I'd appreciate seeing it. The lines seem to be clearly drawn. My wife and I have several friends who have had abortions, and I understand why they are passionate about this issue. We can't judge them nor do we think they are murderers. We love them and have enjoyed their friendship for years. They know where we stand; I believe that life does begin at conception, (no debate necessary). Like I said before, it seems that those in favor of abortion are also for ESCR, and visa versa. I was diagnosed with PD 7 years ago, and have been taking a supplement for about 2 years now. It has been adequately vented on this site, but it deals with Adult Stem cell Nutrients. I've seen a degrading PD progression turn around and in some cases completely reverse the symptom. My worsening resting tremor in my left thumb is now gone; my shuffling, forward leaning gate is now a heel-toe upright walk. My energy and strength levels have improved. You may not have been on this site when I thought I was spreading good news about a product that had helped me in my fight against PD. The response was less than positive, and I realized that there was a lot of animosity based, I guess, on years of experience some of the members had with so called "cures". Some said I was just trying to get rich (I'm not looking for a job) off the sick, that the placebo effect was in play; that this is what keeps "faith healers" in business, etc. And finally; "it won't last". Well, it's been good for me for a little under 2 years now, so if it doesn't last, I at least have enjoyed the improvement so far. Regards, Dave -----Original Message----- From: Rick McGirr Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 10:53 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Lets talk about ESC Mania! A point made partly in jest, David. I meant no attack on you. I also am no expert on technical aspects of stem cell research. Therefore I won't try to speak too directly on some of the points you raised in your questions. For the record, I support stem cell research broadly. I also do not object to cloning research, as long as it isn't used to create slave armies or something. I think the personhood push is presently harming research. The notion that life begins at conception is at the core of this idea. I do not believe that the combined sperm and egg constitute even a potential person before the fertilized egg has gone through a series of changes, at least. It has no brain at this stage, no detectable consciousness, no body parts, it is noto viable to survive, to even become a fetus, if it doesn't make the connection to the mother in utero, etc. In my view, it is not, therefore, eligible under legal or religious prohibitions. For me, then, the great moral concern about using stem cells in the search for cures and treatments is that the research be supported fully by every means possible. People who are actually living, especially those afflicted with disease, should be considered before potential or future human beings. Discussions about history and politics aside, I admit my attitude serves my needs well. I happen to have PD, and I happen to prefer scientific research, rather than political or religious rhetoric, in combating it. Having stated this, I also must say that forays onto the battlefield of public opinion have not fared well on this listserv, and have more than once served to foster antipathy among us. If the discussion turns ugly, I most likely will suggest that it continue via direct email or on one of the social networking platforms. Regards all Rick -----Original Message----- From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David McMurray Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 4:15 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Lets talk about ESC Mania! Hi Rick; You make a good point, one that I have embraced for at least half a century, but to debate on which side has more idiots would not be appropriate here, and I am commenting on the subject of ESCR at the invitation of Ray. She has already discounted my response, i.e., Dr. Prentice and his testimony before the Maryland House Committees, but I'd like to get specific and ask a few questions, based on his testimony. Keep in mind that I don't claim to be an expert nor do I have any education or training in this science. And Ray, you obviously know more about him than I do. But these questions will be taken from his testimony before Congress. 1. Does the science behind "somatic cell nuclear transfer" promote the use of cloning technology to create human embryos for experiments? 2. Is it true that almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell: the fertilized ovum. (zygote)? 3. Do you agree that the National Academy of Sciences' definition of "embryo" includes, "In medical terms, embryo usually refers to the developing human from fertilization (the zygote stage)?.... 4. Is it true, as stated by Dr. Prentice, that "Both Reproductive and Therapeutic cloning use exactly the same techniques to create the clone, and the cloned embryos are indistinguishable? 5. Is it true that "therapeutic cloning requires the creation of and disaggregation ex utero of blastocyst stage embryos"? 6. Is it true that "Unlike much stem cell research, which can use spare embryos remaining from infertility procedures, CRNT (cell replacement through nuclear transfer AKA "therapeutic cloning") requires the deliberate creation and disaggregation of a human embryo. (and this is, evidently, where the Ethics question begins). So, the way I see it, and the reason abortion has been thrown into the mix, Ray; those who have no problem with aborting "fetuses" will have no problem with ESCR. And Rick, I'd be careful of promoting an issue that has to rely on what is done "for the greater public". History cries out to us to learn from the past, and not repeat the events that have been done under that guise. The problem was in who determined what was good. In that regard, if Obama Care is fully implemented, seniors may very well be individually scrutinized as to their viability. Those decisions will also be made considering "the public good". If you don't believe it, there's plenty on the web on both sides of the issue. But for me, Obama Care is going to adversely impact all seniors, particularly those in need of major medical care. (Such as ESC treatments)? Regards, Dave -----Original Message----- From: Rick McGirr Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 12:33 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Lets talk about ESC Mania! Hello, folks, Ray, thanks for the invitation. "....come on, his constituents don't take him seriously, why should you?" My answer: because idiots vote. Misinformation is one of the chief tools in any political contest. If enough people are ill-informed, they will cause wrong-headed bills to bubble up to the top of public discourse, like this poor, misguided buffoon in Oklahoma has done. It's curious that this legislator has, himself, bubbled to the top of Okla politics. It's unfortunate that medical research has to sit on its hands while these 'chicken-licken's' slowly grasp what is actually happening. I think the best prophylactic for misguided ideas is a good dousing with correct information and up-to-date discussion focusing on reality, the scientific method, and the good of the greater public, tenets of public discourse back when I was attending public schools. Rick -----Original Message----- From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Rayilyn Brown Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 3:37 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Lets talk about ESC Mania! Dave thank you for bringing this up. I assume you are someone who has concerns about the ESC issue and I would like to know what they are. I think it is past time we had an open discussion re this issue., especially since it looks like ESCS are responsible for restoring sight to two women. And now, more than ever, the forces of opposition on the state level are mixing abortion with IVF, contraception and embryonic stem cell research. Millions of lives depend upon the outcome of this struggle and I don't mean aborted fetuses. -----Original Message----- From: David McMurray Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:20 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: ESC Mania! Using this nut to throw a blanket over anyone who has concerns about the stem cell issue is disingenuous, to say the least....come on, his constituents don't take him seriously, why should you? Dave -----Original Message----- From: Meg Duggan Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:07 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: ESC Mania! OMG OMG OMG. These people make me want to tear my hair out and set myself on fire. -----Original Message----- From: Nic Marais <[log in to unmask]> To: PARKINSN <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 3:27 am Subject: ESC Mania! Ray, this is what you're up against!!! http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/2105-aborted-fetuses-food-oklahoma.html And I thought we had problems with politicians here in SA... Nic 59/17 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- o sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] n the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn