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Dave So what is the solution? Let them die, as we heard at a Republican debate. Medicare paid for my DBS surgeries. Do you suggest I should have gone bankrupt or shook forever? or kill myself? I don't see this government program (which I paid into) as a miserable failure. Although the capitalist system has created great benefits for mankind, historically it has been at a terrible price - child labor, unsafe working conditions like those that led to the factory fires in the late 19th century are not things we want to go back to. Nor are impure food and snake oil drugs we are fairly safe from because of the FDA and the Pure Food and Drug Act. Slave wages and no benefits are things unions fight against. I hear you David, I used to be a union hater because my mother was one. I did not go on strike in 1965 when I first started teaching, but in the 1980's I did. Unions are far from perfect, BUT WITHOUT THEM I WOULD HAVE NO PENSION AND SECONDARY INSURANCE AT ALL. IT IS CLEAR TO ME THAT THE "free market" or even city government like LA City Schools are NOT GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING IF LEFT ALONE. In retrospect I can't think of a single thing that conservatives have ever done or led in bringing about to "promote the general welfare". Does anyone really believe they are on our side? -----Original Message----- From: David McMurray Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 11:29 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WHAT W I LL YOU DO IN NOVEMBER? Hi Rick; the difference between the way I see it, as opposed to many on this site; it's obvious that I am convinced the government IS the problem, not the solution. The thousands of alphabet soup agencies that had such glowing promise of solving a particular social or economic injustice has been a miserable failure, with the only answer from the Feds: create more bureaucracy and increase spending. Jimmy Carter in 1976, I believe, created the Dept. of Energy to end our reliance on foreign oil, by "developing and producing domestic supplies". OSHA was created to increase safety in the workplace, but has had little or no impact. (But has caused tremendous cost increases). The NLRB was originally formed as an un-biased Federal Agency to settle disputes between Management and Labor. Now, it is a crusader for Organized Labor.... This Behemoth (Big Government) has a voracious and insatiable appetite that has the US, as well as most of the industrial nations drowning in red ink. We are broke, period. With our huge deficits growing exponentially, Obama trots out his answer to Health Insurance, claiming it will lower medical costs. Of coarse, the numbers used have been proven to be as worthless as the paper it's written on, with the GAO and bi-partisan congressional review stating the actual cost is triple the projections.... One of the lead proponents of Obama-Care is in love with Great Britain's plan. I've read some interesting comments and some history..correct me if this is not accurate; some claim that the glowing promise of the newly formed NHS in July of 1948 becoming the bench mark for Socialized Medicine has failed miserably, considered by many as the worst of all the industrialized nations. Costs have exploded. The NHS uses the most aggressive pricing in the West, going so far as to assign a price to the "Quality-Adjusted Life Year", that is required to extend it. But from 1996-2008 national health costs in the UK have gone up 6.7%, compared with 5.7% in the U.S. If you don't qualify under the "Quality-adjusted Life Year criterion, and chose to have the treatment and pay for it yourself, you are kicked off the NHS for life. Terminally ill patients are classified as "close to death" to allow removal of expensive life support. Hip and knee replacement schedules are supposed to be 5 months, but are actually a 11 month wait. If you buy a drug that NHS won't cover, you're expelled for ever. In 1999, realizing they couldn't absorb the skyrocketing costs, they formed rationing boards whose sole purpose was to identify and limit coverage to those procedures that were deemed "cost effective". The "QALY" was formed precisely to deny elderly care patients and shift coverage to younger, healthier patients. This probably explains the statistics that show the UK with the highest mortality rates for elderly patients diagnosed with cancer or chronic illnesses. There's much, much more that should cause us to pause, ponder, and heed the warning signs....they are there. Dave P.S.: Rick, I didn't refer to them as "death panels", and didn't compare Obama to Stalin. :) -----Original Message----- From: Rick McGirr Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 11:05 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WHAT W I LL YOU DO IN NOVEMBER? David, If America is so wealthy, why are so many people living without any healthcare at all? We have seen the profit motive at work in healthcare before, in the case of the pharmaceutical company which pulled the plug on a trial of GDNF. The chief exec of the company was caught saying, at a shareholder meeting, that treatments such as GDNF were not the way the company should go, because of its poor profit prospects. Left alone to cope in our free-market system, these poor subjects are stuck with the hardware for the delivery of GDNF still implanted in their bodies. This is not a hypothetical case. It actually happened. Echoing Ray’s remarks, what if a cure for Parkinson’s was developed, but the projections for the profitability were low enough to steer the most companies away from the cure’s development and mass production? Is there no point at all when a caring society should stand up for all the ones who would be left in the lurch? Are we to sit idly by and let the bulls trample our chance of regaining what we have lost during our tenure as inmates in the PD prison? David, I just don’t know how you could fall for the “death committee” lies and the comparisons of Mr. Obama’s presidency to Stalinist Russia in the mid-20th century. I say if there is enough money in our society to fight two or three simultaneous wars and bully the rest of the world with our military in the vanguard, bail out the banks and Chevrolet, and give the proposed tax cuts to the wealthiest beneficiaries of the free-market, there certainly should be a little pile of coins that we could sweep up after the capitalist binge, enough to provide for development of unprofitable but effective treatments, along with coverage for those who can’t afford it. Being deemed “unfit for further treatment” is much more likely in the system that existed before the Affordable Healthcare Act. I’m sure there are many on this listserve who can testify to having been denied prescription coverage, or paying hundreds of dollars for a single bottle of pills. And I’m sure that all of us have heard horror stories about people being denied care in emergency rooms, and later dying because they didn’t have insurance coverage. In fact, committees who do indeed decide people’s fate on a cost-benefit basis exist right now, today, only they are not created and run by President Obama and his sinister squad of eugenic scientists. They are just part of the daily practice of running a health insurance company. It's becoming increasingly harder to watch these discussions without participating. Hope you don't mind. Rick McGirr -----Original Message----- From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Rayilyn Brown Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 2:53 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WHAT W I LL YOU DO IN NOVEMBER? Hi David, and thanks for responding. I guess you fear Obama has death panels in store for us, right? So what do you suggest for health care? At one time in history feudalism was a "better" system. Capitalism and industralization definitely led to human progress; non-industial societies don't do very well. But is this the end of the line? The best we can do? I specifically asked why profit had to be a part of health care and you did not address that question. The defects of the "free market" system put us in this mess, not Mr. Obama. The repeal of the Glass-Seagall Act's ban on investment and commercial banking in one institution led to the financial breakdown. It had kept us safe since the 1930's I for one am tired of hearing about the superiority of the United States. For your information DBS was first done by a French doctor. ProSavin is only being done in the UK and France. I also think the big government vs. small government issue is a phony one. What matters is who is in the government not how big or small it is. For the past few decades Republicans have gotten control of many state governments. Witness the retrogressive, extremist legislation they are producing or attempting to produce, personhood laws, bans on collective bargaining, invasive vaginal exams, voter suppression, anti-abortion, stand your ground, etc. Talk about Big Brother!!!! These issues do affect people with Parkinson's and all diseases for that matter. We ignore them at our peril. -----Original Message----- From: David McMurray Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:26 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WHAT W I LL YOU DO IN NOVEMBER? Ray, your comments and questions warrant a response.....in general, profit has made this country the most prosperous, with the highest standard of living, in the history of mankind. Instead of a system, like the Soviet Union and others that shared and share equally in scarcity, (which increases human suffering and a poverty standard of living), our Free Market economy has done just the opposite. And if we can reverse the direction that Mr. Obama has pointed us in, we will continue to see opportunities for those who want to work hard and improve their lot in life. I am much more concerned about Big Brother telling us what we can or cannot be treated for. I've seen the quotes, and the Panels of Experts that will eventually be formed under ObamaCare will have the power to deem an individual unfit for further treatment, or a specific treatment, (based on economic concerns, i.e., what's the cost/benefit factor.) Obama has mentioned the fact that the rising cost of Care is directly related to the increased numbers of the Senior population and the expensive treatment for serious illnesses common to them. Denying treatment is going to be a major cost-cutting feature of OBC.....this concept used to be" Unthinkable", but has become "Thinkable", soon to be "Acceptable".....all done for the "common good". November, for me is a "no-brainer"....:):) Dave -----Original Message----- From: Rayilyn Brown Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 1:57 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: WHAT W I LL YOU DO IN NOVEMBER? I just heard Romney’s address to the NRA. he said Obama is destroying our economic, religious and personal freedom (to choose our own health care), and the constitution . The Declaration of Independence god-given rights was also cited. What kind of a life does one have with Parkinson’s? Is a cure going to come from the free market which sees no profit in a cure, the churches, or the NRA? Can someone tell me why profit has to be the foundation of our health care? WHAT A TERRIBLE SHAME IT WOULD BE IF PROSAVIN TURNED OUT TO BE A CURE FOR PD, BUT WAS NOT PROFITABLE ENOUGH FOR THE “JOB CREATORS”!! Please, I beg you, don’t return us to the past. Ray Rayilyn Brown Past Director AZNPF Arizona Chapter National Parkinson Foundation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off Parkinsn send a message to: mailto:[log in to unmask] In the body of the message put: signoff parkinsn