Now we know that private sector managed health care has One additional slice of the pie (called profit) it hands out that the socialized med. plans don't have (Investors/shareholders). Unlike your thoughts, IMHO folks should be considering socialized medicine and not individual Practitioner/client relationship as in the past or the HMO/managed care contracts. As to California not yet coming on stream ...well they all have that "litigation lust" that keeps practitioner malpractice insurance rates sky high so thats to be expected. Consider this: What are the anesthesia risks for an 80 year old ? How many others have to check their wallets before they take care of those little pains and problems that are the minor initial symptoms of something far worse that could have been detected and prevented with early diagnosis. It could cause financial ruin for the uncovered, or partially covered patient and I'm SURE the thought occurs to them in making the decision on treatment. I do agree that if the plan was headed up by a CEO that makes $57 mil in a year that skimped on treatment approval should be banished from the country. But how do you control profits? Either it's government controlled (which is one step away from socialized) or the Health Care shopper is going to switch brands once the numbers are disclosed. My son was born in Tennessee and I had one of the 5 best competitive premium to benefit plans. There were some complications in the birth and the cost for his 9 days of hospital care ran over $18,000. Oh we had the finest and the best with an intern beside every bassinet in the Neonatal care unit and a Nurse and Pediatrician and almost a duplicate assortment of equipment that a hospital has all in the ambulance called "The Angel" (for Vanderbilt U. Hosp.) Anyway the bottom line for that week for me STILL cost $2,800 out of pocket. And we got a free Car seat, a steak and wine dinner in my wife's room and a few other freebie's hidden into that $2,800 the insurance plan wouldn't cover. On another occassion in the U.S.,I required treatment and hospitalization and OHIP (Ontario Hospital Insurance Plan) covered, up to what they would pay for the care in Canada and in ALL categories it was higher which I had to pay since I didn't get my Blue Cross travellers insurance.. But the costs were as much ad 50% higher on some items (like lab work) even with the exchange calculated in. The Canadian plan isn't perfect, but it is definitely more compasionate and socially responsible for its people than in the U.S The only time I have to pay is if I wanted cosmetic surgery. There are a few other minor items none of which are deemed a medical necessity (ie. an absessed tooth extraction is a qualifying treatment whereas getting fillings or repairs is not). and thus don't think twice to get a problem checked. Kind of like the HMO concept except we call our premium taxes.(And don't have those outragious CEO salaries and dividends to the shareholders). Yes private sector profit driven site will find efficencies that a government run might not handle so well, but even with all that considered the cost per treatment or incident as an average are still much higher thanks to that nice PROFIT slice. Now I don't know about you but there is a VERY LARGE part of American population that might find $2,800 a significant financial burden. And that's nothing compared to some chronic care things that could result from disease or accident. After moving back to Canada I can honestly say a MAJOR burden was lifted. You're rolling the dice every day down in the U.S. hoping you come up lucky and no one gets sick or hurt in the family. You won't see homes getting mortgaged, cars repossessed, bankruptcies declared DUE TO MEDICAL EXPENSES. Considering how much financial related anxiety affects most of our lives, attitudes and generally peace of mind, I'd say we can be a lot more relaxed and thankful in Canada. I know that excluding certain critical care for a part of the population sounds cruel and nasty but why not look at the TOTAL picture and discuss mortality rates, longevity stats, ratio of critical care to primary care. As to the older folks and shutting down beds.....thats a wise management move AND a preferred patient option IMO, for convalescent and geriatric care, I think you'll find most elderly patients would PREFER to get care at home than to stay in a foreign unknown hotel called a hospital. In Canada we have the VON and a number of private home care services. Now no doubt y'all have a political and financial interest in the outcome that has bias toward a practitioner. Socialized would get rid of the highly overpaid CEO's as well as (God Forbid) possibly put controls on the practitioners and treatment options. I dare say that there are more "management" decisions that boil down to not just what's best for the patient but what the hospital thinks is a good financial risk. How many of those non critical but important corrective surgeries are not considered for the children of parents who earn too much to qualify for Medicaid and too little to afford any significant treatments/surgery. Hell being a father, I'd never think twice to do what the kids need, but are all parents so free from finanical considerations in their decisions? My kids come first, but then what happens to our quality of life trying to pay off those unplanned or unaffordable medical bills. I'm thankful I don't have to plan/budget my family's health care. Oh that dog story was cute. The whole perspective reminds me of one of the threads in the Depression list, "depressive realism". Whose perspective here is closest to a correct balance or norm? ____________________________ Vic Jasin - [log in to unmask] "iki pasirasymo"