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To Ray Lakin, Brian Collins and other engineers, here's this from yet another engineer: A mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer and a software engineer are motoring along when all of a sudden the car begins to make odd noises and before long quits working altogether. The mechanical engineer sounds off as an expert and diagnoses the trouble must be associated with the head and valve train: "I believe we got one or more burnt valves". The electrical engineer has his own pet theory: "Most car problems are caused by the electrical system: There must be an intermittent short somewhere that is causing the timing to be out of whack". The software engineer is silent for a while and then speaks up tentatively: "What if we all went out of the car and then got back in". See, even engineers can make fun of engineers, it just depends on what kind of engineer. Will A. Kuipers ( 75 / dx '91 ) INTERNET:[log in to unmask]