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Earnie:
Not only are you a  good writer but you are a human with feelings. I
think you did an excellent job in sharing your feelings and I appreciate
your wife's participation (if she saw your message).If we treat the
subject on a adult level there should not be any hurt feelings by any
members.
Sex or lovemaking is so important, that some feel that it contributes
more then 50% to a relationship or marriage.

Camilla,
Again I find your wise thoughts are reflected to the newly added subject
(lovemaking). Just think how many members will learn from your or our
thoughts who would normally not bring up the subject. As I said earlier I
take my wife to several support groups and the subject is kept in the
closet. I might just open the door to that closet one of these days.

I hope that nobody is embarrassed or offended by these communications. It
is all part of a learning process.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Henry Guttentag


Yes Barb: I might just show up for your meeting, Just joking, don't worry
Where do you meet in LA. Just joking.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

Ernie Peters wrote:
>
> So, ... people were right when they said the net was full of sex!  It is
> even here on the Parkinsn list!!
>
> Well, whether people like to admit it or not, it is one of the greatest
> driving forces in our world AND it is medically relevent to PD so I would
> EXPECT there to be some discussion on the subject.  Some very interesting
> mail has come in from people like Henry Guttentag, Barbara Mallut and Ida
> Kamphuis amongst others.  Now I would like to have a say.
>
> I may use an odd word (strictly medically) in writing about it that MAY
> offend some people, and the subject is unmistakable so please use the delete
> button now if you do not wish to read further.  There is nobody under age on
> this group anyway.
>
> Barb Mallut wrote:
>
> >for over a year now, I've come to see how insecure SOOO many chronically ill
> >people are when it comes to their self-worth.  This seems to cross the
> >boundries of all chronic diseases, and isn't at all limited to PD.  And let's
> >face it... when there's an impaired view of one's own self-worth, generally
> >there's depression, too.  Who in the world would feel sexual OR sexy if they
> >believe themself to be less lovable or unlovable, and/or are depressed much of
> >the time?
> >
> >Uhhhhh... this is NOT an ideal setting for anyone's sexuality to blossom and
> >grow... Unfortunately.
>
> Eloquently put as usual Barb.  Now let me put it from the male point of view
> and stress the crucial word when it comes to lovemaking.  It is CONFIDENCE!
> All the things that Barb has mentioned above can lead to that lack of
> confidence and then you can get into a vicious circle.
>
> It works like this:  A male HAS to achieve an erection to make love
> properly.  He cannot pretend or do it only for his partner whilst not in the
> mood himself.  He can please his partner in other ways but the normal
> procreative act itself requires an erection.  All the things mentioned by
> Barb above will lead to a reduction of that confidence.  That can lead to a
> terrible vicious circle where one less than successful episode can increase
> anxiety and lower confidence the next time with even worse results.
>
> The point I am trying to make here is that you only have to DOUBT your
> ability to perform to find that you genuinely CAN'T perform.  This is
> important because there may be no PHYSICAL reason for the impotence just the
> doubt and loss of confidence.  In talking about this I think it is important
> to point out that one could have a strong libido (sexual urges) but still be
> impotent (unable to achieve an erection)  (To lighten the subject a little,
> perhaps it is like the man who said the sex was all in his head and he
> wanted to lower it!!).
>
> One should not underestimate the the part that the male Ego plays in all
> this.  Just look at the definition of the word impotent.  When not applied
> to sexual dysfunction it is defined as "powerless" "lacking the necessary
> strength".  No wonder men are sensitive about it.  Yet Jeremy Browne
> exhibits more "Manliness", guts and courage for admitting to a problem than
> would be proved by any number of automatic reflex actions of a male organ.
>
> This is why I believe that ultimately, lovemaking with a wife or partner
> that you love and have been with for years is so much easier.  You don't
> have to PROVE yourself, and if you do have an "off night", your
> understanding partner knows what you are normally capable of and that it is
> not because you do not care for her or no longer find her attractive.
>
> Luckily, and fingers crossed for the future, the "off nights" have been few
> and far between.  However, the "thought" of failing because of the PD itself
> or the drugs is never too far away and does need a firm push to the back of
> the mind.  This is not always easy.  I have sometimes found that I have
> "thought twice" about lovemaking at a particular time because I realised I
> was "between tablets".
>
> I was diagnosed with PD 3 yrs ago and was at first on Eldepryl + Sinemet,
> now on 3 Sinemet CR per day.  So far I have seen no change in my sexual
> abilities.  (Gosh, when I told Julia I was going to take up the subject she
> said she wanted to see it before I sent it. Squirm.)  Anyway, we have a very
> happy full sex life and as yet PD has not affected that aspect of our lives.
> But, YOU HAVE ME WORRIED!
>
> I suppose one of the reasons I wanted to write in was because I wanted to
> reassure anyone recently diagnosed that it was not necessarily the case that
> their sex life would be affected and that it was important to avoid the
> witch doctor's curse syndrome (You are told you will die so, YOU DIE!).  The
> other is that Henry is right, it is a most important subject and should not
> be a closet subject.
>
> Maybe some drugs affect people more than others?  What about Bromocriptine?
> We used to hear stories of Bromide being put in the tea of men in the
> services to keep them sexually "Quiet", was there a connection and is this true?
>
> Well, I hope I did not shock anybody in talking about it, but it was in
> context.  You never know though, there are all sorts of attitudes around.
> Personally I believe people are really strange on the matter.  Take the
> ancient Chinese for example.  They used to make porcelain naked figures of
> the female form so that when the doctor came they could point to where it
> hurt without mentioning names or (God forbid) taking their clothes off)
>
> Take violence and sex on the TV and in films for instance.
>
> The first can involve murder, decapitation, stabbing etc and despite the
> fact that it is obviously undesirable/anti-society and most people
> experience very little of it, if at all, in a lifetime ....it is plentiful
> on television and accepted.
>
> The second, ie normal lovemaking, which virtually everybody experiences
> probably thousands of times in a lifetime, is fun, harms nobody, and is a
> natural act without which the human race would die out within one
> generation,..... is shown rarely if at all.
>
> I sympathise with a view expressed in a top newspaper some time ago that
> suggested that as real life involved very little violence but lots of sex
> they should show a lot less violence on TV and a lot more sex.
>
> And what if in years to come our children grew up copying what they saw on
> the TV?  Well, it would probably be a better world to live in don't you
> think? <Grin>
>
> Ernie.
>
> At 19:40 29/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >Ida... I suspect that much of how Parkies in general respond sexually also has
> >t do with the individual's feelings of still being a lovable person now that
> >they have a chronic degenerative disease.
> >
> >After managing the Chronic Disease & Disorders Forum on a major Network for
> >over a year now, I've come to see how insecure SOOO many chronically ill
> >people are when it comes to their self-worth.  This seems to cross the
> >boundries of all chronic diseases, and isn't at all limited to PD.  And let's
> >face it... when there's an impaired view of one's own self-worth, generally
> >there's depression, too.  Who in the world would feel sexual OR sexy if they
> >believe themself to be less lovable or unlovable, and/or are depressed much of
> >the time?
> >
> >Uhhhhh... this is NOT an ideal setting for anyone's sexuality to blossom and
> >grow... Unfortunately.
> >
> >Barb Mallut
> >[log in to unmask]
> >
> >----------
> >From:   PARKINSN: Parkinson's Disease - Information Exchange Network on behalf
> >of Ida Kamphuis
> >Sent:   Friday, November 29, 1996 3:05 PM
> >To:     Multiple recipients of list PARKINSN
> >Subject:        sex!
> >
> >To all readers,
> >
> >Now an answer to the sex question is coming, oldfashioned or post-modern. I
> >have some knowledge of this matter from experience and from conversation
> >with co-PWP's. Some years ago I attended a meeting of the Dutch patient
> >organisation were sex was the topic to be discussed.
> >At the beginning of the treatment with dopamine quite wild stories were
> >going on about male patients who after their first pill couldn't leave the
> >nurses alone. If those reports are true this was possibly caused by the
> >very high doses given at that time. But a more modest aphrodisiac effect of
> >L-dopa was reported by man and woman alike.
> >I myself have this experience. Some people had been surprised by their own
> >reaction. They experienced a diminished desire before starting with meds. I
> >think it is important that all users of L_dopa know about the possibility
> >of this effect. Once I was told a marriage broke down while the husband
> >couldn't bear the increased demands of his PD wife.
> >PWP'S  differ in this respect also. Not everyone gets this pos. effect. On
> >the contrary some told that all their sexual feelings had disappeared and
> >did not come back with L_dopa. This can be a cause of impotence.
> >Knowing some things about the relation between sex-drive and neurotrans-
> >mitters it is plausable PD itself diminishes sex-drive. It has something to
> >do with cholinergic vs. anti-cholinergic stimulation, two things that don't
> >go together. Sexual functioning needs anti-cholinergic activation and a PWP
> >without meds has to much cholinergic stimulation.
> >The disappearance of sexual desire might be in some people a primary PD
> >symptom. Needless to say impotence can have other causes and can exist
> >without the absence of desire. If the latter is true, it is definitly
> >caused by something else. In that case a visit to a doctor should be
> >advised.
> >Yet another point. As soon as a PWP is not longer a junior among us but is
> >raised to the status of having real on and off periods, sexual functioning
> >is only possible when on. Some adaptation and choosing other times for sex
> >can be helpfull. Another problem is motor impairment. Those problems can
> >mostly be solved by open discussion and creative fantasy.
> >I hope nobody is too shocked by this Dutch treatment of the topic.
> >
> >                                          Ida Kamphuis, Holland
> >
> >
> Ernie Peters <[log in to unmask]>