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Isn't it interesting how the debate on gay visibility within the PD community has become so circular. We seem to have gone around the same old arguments time and again. Probably because both sides are right. So how do we reconcile Ivan's strongly voiced call for recognition with the predominant list view that the list and the hoped for Oprah show are not the places for private agendas. The Oprah show is an easy one. We actually already have consensus that it is too small a venue for all of the issues and so must be focused. Perhaps the next step is a public awareness campaign on the theme "people get PD'. Such a campaign could show us in all our diversity. The matter of list recognition is not so easy. Many contributors have made the point that an individuals sexual orientation is not important in terms of the list. This is true but not absolute. We heterosexuals allude to our sexuality so casually we are hardly aware we are doing so. Every reference to a husband or wife makes a statement about our sexual orientation.. It is hardly fair to ask Ivan or any other gay listmembers never to mention their partners. Finally can there be any real objection to Ivan including a 'proud to be gay' message with his signature. The information may well be irrelevant to other members, but this list has a multitude of irrelevant messages tacked on to signatures. What's one more? Dennis. ++++++++++++++++++++ Dennis Greene 47/10 [log in to unmask] ++++++++++++++++++++