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Well, Murray, I learned something from this, and hopefully it will help others. I have been very fortunate that I don't have back problems, I have been exposed to enough situations, that I easily could. I did throw my back out lifting a potato (no joke) from the kitchen counter, they actually had to get an injection into the area to stop the pain.. Ironically, I lift and move heavy equipment all the time, and have not hurt my back doing that! [log in to unmask]