Ken, The problem, as I see it anyway, is that medical science continues to advance faster than our ability to pay for it. Advances in medical technology are measured in lives saved and not dollars saved* and thus are of little help in cutting costs, unlike in most other areas in which technology is utilized. Until the HMOs showed up there were few constraints on medical costs. As technology expanded the scope of treatments available. cost started getting out of control. If it weren't for the bean counters counting the beans who would count them, the doctors? Ha! As a group they are notoriously unsavy about anything financial. One example, in commercial real estate finance, one of the safest investments is a medical office building on the grounds of, or within walking distance of, a hospital - if it's professionally owned and managed, here professional referring not by medical professionals. If the doctor/owners manage it - we stay away. People would surely die from doctor-bankrupted HMOs leaving people without medical care, more frequently than by the occasional denied test which kills someone. I think the fact is that medicine has become so expensive that it has to be rationed for the benefit of all. Just like water in a lifeboat. I know, Ken, you STILL don't like the idea of clerks practicing medicine. Personally, I have never been so unimpressed as I have been by doctors since joining this List and finding out how much many of them DON'T know. I think the clerks deserve a shot at it -PROVIDED there is an effective appeal process, which there now is as of 2 months ago which promises to end all the HMO abuses. We'll see, though. You may still be right. * One very small example. I was in the hospital for the same thing in 1983 & 1995. I n'83 an IV went from the bottle to your arm through a tube. In; '95 it went first through an electronic box that took its temperature, measured it, sniffed, sliced it & diced it and God only know what else. About 8" square, it looked like it cost about $3,000 - meaning they are probably about $10,000 each. Bruce P.S. Not to pick on doctors (They afterall, are in general the best at savings lives & ending suffering) but did you know that as a occupational group doctors have the worst accident rates in private aviation? (this is something I read at least 5-7 years ago) No one knows why, although I have a theory. d only jbiw wgat else.