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Dennis, Yes it sounded like I meant that the definition for being human included usefulness to society and clearly I don't believe that. I brought up the issues about population as an additional factor to be considered. It is a whole other argument. Technology has been able to prolong the lives of many and increase the survival rates in many countries. I do not believe in forced abortion (as in China) or mandatory sterilization. I think that in most countries where birth control and/or abortion has been available the population growth rate has voluntarily dropped precipitously. At this point I think the social goal should be to make every child a wanted child. Some list in the future may need to debate these other issues but for now . But I think this is all getting away from PD and should not effect the issue of stem-cell research. As to when HUMAN life begins that is one issue that I doubt whether consensus is possible. I think decision as to whether to allow abortion in society need to be made recognizing this conflict respecting the views of good people on both sides and respect for the right of each person to make decisions for themselves. I recognize that is a hard one to swallow if a person actually fully believes that abortion is murder but how else can we deal with this issue operationally? Dennis- I hope this addresses all of the issues that you posed. Charlie. Dennis Greene wrote: > Charlie Meyer wrote > > "A zygote and a fetus are potential human life and that shouldn't be taken > lightly. But to take the position that they are human puts us on a > different slippery slope which followed to its logical conclusion would have > severe adverse consequences to society- outlawing of certain types of birth > control and abortion, millions of unwanted children, poverty and > starvation and the general deterioration of the quality of life for the > living." > > Charlie - you appear to be arguing that one of the criteria of being human > is that your existence will not cause problems for society. Whatever > criteria are established for a definition of being human I hope and trust > that that is not one of them, as I suspect most of us on this list would > either have lost or be in the process of losing our status as human beings. > > Whether zygotes and foetuses are human or not, the consequences of not > aborting the unwanted ones remain the same. I look forward to the day when > we acknowledge that abortion is a survival issue and that the real debate is > whether society is prepared to make an acception to "thy shalt not kill" > just as it does for wars, self defence, capital punishment etc. > > Dennis. > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Dennis Greene 49/onset 32 /dx 37 > > "It is better to be a crystal and be broken, > Than to be a perfect tile upon the housetop." > > [log in to unmask] > http://members.networx.net.au/~dennisg/ > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++