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Ken, m'dear, it's OK with ME if you or anyone
disagrees with me, on this or any other subject.
I think it'd be an awfully boring world if we all were
in total agreement no matter what.  BORRRING!

'Sides.... who knows... maybe I'll learn something by
discussing a subject about which there is some
disagreement?

NOW... about the rest of your message.  M'friend,
despite our banter 'n bashing - which I sincerely
hope everyone knows is purely done for laughs
(OK.... so we're a coupla hams!) <smile>  I have
nothing but the highest respect and fondness for you

I think you've said it all, and said it SO well in your
commentary.

I've spent yesterday and today mulling around what
I'd read on the List.  Was I horrified? Yes.  Was I
surprised?  No.  Few of us List-folks are Mother
Teresa-types, and few are real nasty numbers.  The
majority of our List membership falls somewhere in
the middle.  Our human imperfections as well as our
virtues are glaringly visible much of the time.

In posting on the List we permit ourselves to be
vulnerable... vulnerable and exposed.  That's why it's
SO important we not flame or bash ANYone
individual personally and publicly.

We don't have to like everyone passing thru here,
but we MUST make allowances for, and tolerate,
our differences.

For those whom we are unable to relate to, or just
plain don't like, there's the DELETE key.  Using THAT
won't cause anyone else grief nor will it cause the
List - which is so valued by all of us - to implode upon
itself, which is the direction it seems to be heading
as people PUBLICLY spew out their anger and
continue to keep things at a rolling boil..

As the infamous Rodney King once said, "Can't we
all be friends?"

Barb Mallut
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: KEn Becker <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 9:50 PM
Subject: Judith/G-d/Ivan, very serious


>This will be as brief as possible, I am tired after reading over 100
posts. I
>hope Judith reconsiders, and stays on the list.  I understand her
frustration.
>The topic of religion is discussed on the list every so often. I
have to
>disagree, probably for the first time ever, with Barb Mallut!
>I believe that we shouldn't  limit the right to discuss one's faith,
or even
>the lack of it, on the list. HOWEVER, it is so important for
everyone to
>realize that since even people who SHARE a particular belief do not
always
>agree on the details, it can get very uncomfortable for EVERYONE,
when the
>discussion of religion becomes the focus of what is posted to the
list.  This
>is not meant to be censorship, just consideration for each other.
For the
>record I am Jewish, I am happy that I am, but I respect everyone
else's right
>to their beliefs, and will be happy to hear about them, in private
posts. It
>can be very interesting to learn about how other's worship, within
reason, and
>with mutual respect.
>        Now to our friend Ivan! I can say a lot of great things
about Ivan, and he
>probably needs to hear them now.  A few people said things about
him, which
>are not complimentary, but are not necessarily untrue either.  My
suggestion
>to Ivan, and I hope he is reading this!  Is to drop the whole thing
with the
>NPF. Not because he is wrong,  but because it will be better for HIM
to let it
>go.  The doctor, or someone on his staff screwed up, but it was not
done out
>of hatred, or gay bashing, or on purpose. Things happen. Sometimes
very
>terrible things happen to the nicest people.  After trying to fix a
problem,
>if it does not respond, it really is better to go on to other things
and try
>to forgive, or at least forget.  Ivan, if you spent the time you
have put into
>your campaign against the NPF, doing even menial labor, you probably
could
>have made back triple the money you lost.  You could say you had a
"bad
>vacation" in Miami. You could say you spent some time with your
father, and it
>cost more than it should have.  You could just try to block the
whole
>experience form your mind, as if it were a bad dream.   It is
haunting you,
>and ruining your life, by turning away people who really want to
help you.
>Now I will drop that subject.  Ivan has lived with more problems
than many
>people, including PD, loneliness when he really needs to have people
with him,
>a  fire which killed his cat, and leveled his home, a very limited
income,
>loss of his ability to do a job that he was probably very good at.
He has
>found and lost lovers, friends, and even been turned away by his
family.  I am
>sure he knows he has his moods, and says things  that turn people
away when he
>needs them the most. I blame PD for that, it is a part of the
package of
>symptoms.
> Okay, so why should we care? Ivan  fights for others, even when he
is down on
>his "luck".(if any!)  He sees beauty in simple things like a warm
fire, a
>flower, a bird, a cloud.  He can take criticism and try to improve,
or at
>least takes the time to explain why he did something wrong. He has a
memory
>for details and an ability to analyze situations and can accomplish
great
>deeds.  He is like the fighter who is down for the count and jumps
up and
>keeps fighting when when everyone thinks it is all over.  He is
tenacious.  He
>is not ashamed to admit he salvages from trash, to survive. We
should all be
>ashamed that he should need to, in a country like the USA!   And why
do people
>throw away things that someone else can use? Shame on THEM!  He has
been
>turned down by Rabbis and Priests, when seeking help, hopefully in a
nice way,
>but he still walked away empty handed.
>Ivan is not about to give up, and we should not let him.  He has
said things
>that hurt, or insulted some of those who have tried to help him, but
I don't
>think he meant to do that.  If apologies are in order, I am pretty
sure they
>will come.
>Let's ALL try to focus on PD, the REAL enemy.  Until the cure is
found, we
>should spend as much time spreading the knowledge on the list, and
if time
>must be "wasted", use it to entertain, or comfort those who need it.
When
>criticism is earned by a listmember,  either let it go, or take it
to private
>email, unless making it public will help others. Forgive the length
of this
>post, but I knew these things needed to be said.  Ken B
>