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In ancient Greece, rhetoric was first and always performative -- it was highly structured and very well understood long before being written down. This seems a very important for us to remember, mired as we are in the primacy of print text. I know very, very little about rhetoric outside the west--and wish I knew much, much more. At 03:54 PM 3/2/1999 -0800, you wrote: >Could be, but it seems to me that, unlike other disciplines, the study >(theorizing) of rhetoric began in only one place in the ancient >world--ancient Greece, especially Athens, which was atypically democratic, >that we ought to consider its relationship to two crucial factors in >Athens: (1) an advocacy-based legal system--remember ancient Athenians >were were more litigious than modern-day USAmericans--and (2) political >democracy to the extent that the ability to sway a sizable crowd of voters >translated into power. > >What I see is a tendency for rhetorical study to be narrowed to stylistics >(language as distinguished from thought) in less democratic contexts, i.e., >to matters of "clarity" and decoration. In the 19th century, if I >remember correctly, some literacy scholars argue, the differences between >Canada and the USA in literacy education parallel differences in levels of >democracy and industrialization, including the greater advantage to be >gained in the US by presenting written arguments effectively. > >Where rhetoric is studied--remember Burke argues in 1950 that is is studied >mostly in the various social sciences--is a somewhat different question, I >think. > >In Canada, I teach the rhetoric of the political brief (in the same slot >where I might have taught classical or Rogerian persuasion) because that >genre seems to be a more important aspect of the political process here >than in the USA. > >Rick > >At 04:21 PM 3/2/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Could it be that primary rhetoric--the doing of rhetoric--flourishes in >>a democratic culture, but secondary rhetoric--the study of it--is >>something else again, more subject to the various winds of disciplinary >>paradigms? Certainly rhetoric is studied extensively in Canada, but not >>often _as_ rhetoric in a collected sense. Political scientists study >>deliberative rhetoric, law profs study forensic, etc. As for the how-to > >>side of rhetoric, it is scattered among English departments >>(composition, often remedial and despised), public relations,journalism, >>etc. >> >>So my quick take would be that the lack of a discipline of rhetoric does >>not necessarily mark Canada as anti-democratic or even anti-rhetorical. >> >> >>[log in to unmask] wrote: >>> >>> Hi Cathy, >>> >>> You asked whether Textual Studies in Canada got covered in U.S. indexes. >>> In fact, we've been accepted by both the MLA and CCCC. However, for the >>> MLA we had to wait a few years, ostensibly to ensure that we were >>> "keepers"? >>> >>> However, the fact remains that the Canadian situation in rhetoric/tech >>> writing is difficult. >>> >>> This leads me to an issue that I may have raised on this list recently, >>> but I'm not sure. In any case, I'd like some feedback in preparation for >>> the Atlanta roundtable. (For those of you that will be there, forgive me >>> for telegraphing my punch!) >>> >>> In the history of rhetoric, it's a truism that rhetoric flourishes in a >>> free society but languishes in an autocratic culture. If this is true, >>> why has rhetoric had such a tough slog in Canada in the 20th C.? Does >>> the anti-rhetorical bent in post-secondary education in Canada reflect >>> something about a latent (to some not too hidden) resistance to free >>> thought and expression in Canada? >>> >>> Is the resistance to rhetoric in 20th-C. Canada rooted in an >>> English-Canadian colonial mind? Given the English lit. curriculum through >>> most of the century, this is probably not a trick question. >>> >>> Any thoughts on this? Any personal experience? Russ's comments on the >>> difference between a writer and a Writer sheds some light here. Since a >>> Writer is born, not made, need we bother with the writer? Whence would >>> such an attitude arise? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Henry A. Hubert, Ph.D. >>> Office of the Dean of Arts >>> >>> University College of the Cariboo | Phone: 250-828-5236 >>> P.O. Box 3010 | FAX: 250-371-5510 >>> Kamloops, B. C. | E-mail: [log in to unmask] >>> V2C 5N3 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>-- >>Doug Brent >>Co-ordinator, Undergraduate Program in Communications Studies >>Associate Dean, Academic Programs and Faculty Affairs >>Faculty of General Studies, University of Calgary >>(403) 220-5458 >>Fax: (403) 282-6716 >>http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~dabrent >> > >