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hi all At 19:53 1999/08/04 -0500, charlie wrote: >Hi Janet, >I have to disagree with you about the analogy of being >invited to dinner and criticizing the list . I see us as >a family all with different personalities needs and desires. >What you are saying if this is true is let us argue politics, >pigs or whatever but don't comment on the process- the hidden >rules which are operative.. i'm having trouble following this - hidden rules? >I think we both agree that the list will not survive as more >than a place to play and chat if opinion is censored or so strongly >discouraged that people are discouraged from posting. But it will >also be in danger if we are discouraged from commenting on the list >process as we see it.... danger? what danger? >We then become a pseudomutual family like a 50's sitcom >where everything is perfect on the outside but under the >surface mom hates dad, dad is screwing with his secretary, >the kids are alcoholic because the family is not being real >with each other.... i can't relate this to my dinner metaphor or to the list's existence you are talking about a true family whose structure is inherent in its roots and in its origins a woman and a man who have made vows to each other, who have born children together, who have legal and moral and emotional obligations to and expectations of each other the list is just a structure, a framework, a cyber megaphone, a hall rental offered by the owner who could be anyone, granted, for virtually free use by anyone to communicate with anyone else hopefuly about pd, in this case imho the communication among all the individuals is what creates the family-like-ness [and it's only a likeness, an ethereal shadow in cyber space] not the list structure the members of this cyber family have no obligations to or expectations of anything except maybe a little tolerance and common courtesy if barb wanted to fold up the tent and go south there's no 'real' family structure i.e. marriage, parenthood, etc. here to hold her back, is there? the structure exists here because she built it herself out of her own will and generosity >We in the past have clashed on this issue and never resolved it. >I think that it is necessary that people not be discouraged from >stating their displeasure with the list... we still don't agree and i still can't follow your viewpoint i don't think your extension of the family metaphor is relevant if i were to extend the dinner metaphor i might make it a pd support group holding its regular meeting in my house in that case you wouldn't be getting chili and beer so you couldn't complain about them but i might hear sheesh do we have to sit in this room with that gawdawful painting? and when was this place vacuumed last, anyway? and why is the coffee taking so long? and why in heck did you have to tell the jones' about this meeting ? in which case my response might be gee whilikers, what did your last servant die of? and holy moly, don't you guys have any real business to discuss? and i hear there's a real purty lookin hotel with real meetin rooms right down the road so hit it >If you don't want any rules than so be it (or minimal rules >such as no commercial soliciting and no personal attacks)... so be it? them's the house rules, take 'em or leave 'em [as jean chretien would say] >But I think the list process should be fair game... why? don't we have more important things to discuss? the host/owner called / calls the shots including the list creation, the list options, the list restrictions the creating was not a democratic act and neither is the maintenance, i might add ono here comes another metaphor why can't we leave the driving to the bus-driver? who also happens to own the bus who also does not happen to be charging any fare and is paying for the gas out of her own pocket you lot can talk about any dang thing you want just stay in your dang seats and quit yer twitchin why can't we accept the hospitality as it is offered? why don't we want to pay attention to our real problems? >If enough people are fed up with pigs then the subject will >die. But choosing not to act is as powerful as acting. Choosing >not to protest is a tacit vote to keep on the same subject until >it runs out of steam (as I have chosen with pigs)... i'm afraid i can't follow this >As the list co-leader your opinion is magnified significantly kind of >like Napoleon in Animal Farm (a pig!!). " Some animals are more equal >than others." So your words are heard loud and clear. I think that >you set the unwritten rules with your considerable writing talents and >the esteem people hold you in.... maybe my voice is magnified by becoming a list-mom but i don't think the tune has changed one whit do you know that in my very first message to the list in october 1995 there was a similar list kefuffle and i expressed the exact same opinion then as now i told barb not to change it and bless her lil heart she hasn't! i look on this facility as a blessing in my life however, and not to minimize barb's efforts, the bare-bones structure could be a listserv in toronto, or a bbs in los angeles, or a major-domo in leeds, or a bulletin board at the piggly-wiggly grocery store in the sky, that part doesn't matter to me other than its existence what does matter to me is the communication between us, worldwide and instant, about the toughest, scariest parts of our lives which some of us can share with no-one else >The prime directive becomes "Don't criticize the list... nope the prime directive has never been that the prime directive is sharing and talking about pd >"Now with your new position that is strengthened even more... maybe but i've always been a ton more vocal than barb and the song is still the same old song >we don't complain (as a family member should but a guest shouldn't). Are >the complainers guests or are they family members? If they are part of >the family then they have a right and perhaps even a duty to complain if >they are guests they should be polite and suffer in silence and leave- >smiling but dissatisfied... this is not a 'real' family it's a cyberial ethereal replication of a shadow of a family similar to the way that a three dimensional [as opposed to ethereal] support group can become 'family-like' this lecture has been presented free of charge with assistance from one pansy-bell janet janet paterson 52 now / 41 dx / 37 onset snail-mail: PO Box 171 Almonte Ontario K0A 1A0 Canada website: a new voice <http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Village/6263/> e-mail: <[log in to unmask]>