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janet=extraordinary woman. Sorta liked the dinner analogy, too. Carole H. --- janet paterson <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > hi all > > At 19:53 1999/08/04 -0500, charlie wrote: > >Hi Janet, > >I have to disagree with you about the analogy of > being > >invited to dinner and criticizing the list . I see > us as > >a family all with different personalities needs and > desires. > >What you are saying if this is true is let us argue > politics, > >pigs or whatever but don't comment on the process- > the hidden > >rules which are operative.. > > i'm having trouble following this - hidden rules? > > >I think we both agree that the list will not > survive as more > >than a place to play and chat if opinion is > censored or so strongly > >discouraged that people are discouraged from > posting. But it will > >also be in danger if we are discouraged from > commenting on the list > >process as we see it.... > > danger? what danger? > > >We then become a pseudomutual family like a 50's > sitcom > >where everything is perfect on the outside but > under the > >surface mom hates dad, dad is screwing with his > secretary, > >the kids are alcoholic because the family is not > being real > >with each other.... > > i can't relate this to my dinner metaphor > or to the list's existence > > you are talking about a true family > whose structure is inherent in its roots and in its > origins > a woman and a man who have made vows to each other, > who have born children together, who have legal and > moral and > emotional obligations to and expectations of each > other > > the list is just a structure, a framework, a cyber > megaphone, a hall rental > offered by the owner who could be anyone, granted, > for virtually free use > by anyone to communicate with anyone else > hopefuly about pd, in this case > > imho > the communication among all the individuals > is what creates the family-like-ness > [and it's only a likeness, an ethereal shadow in > cyber space] > not the list structure > > the members of this cyber family > have no obligations to or expectations of > anything except maybe a little tolerance and common > courtesy > > if barb wanted to fold up the tent and go south > there's no 'real' family structure i.e. marriage, > parenthood, etc. here > to hold her back, is there? > > the structure exists here because she built it > herself > out of her own will and generosity > > >We in the past have clashed on this issue and never > resolved it. > >I think that it is necessary that people not be > discouraged from > >stating their displeasure with the list... > > we still don't agree > and i still can't follow your viewpoint > > i don't think your extension of the family metaphor > is relevant > > if i were to extend the dinner metaphor > i might make it a pd support group holding its > regular meeting in my house > in that case > you wouldn't be getting chili and beer > so you couldn't complain about them > but i might hear > sheesh do we have to sit in this room with that > gawdawful painting? > and when was this place vacuumed last, anyway? > and why is the coffee taking so long? > and why in heck did you have to tell the jones' > about this meeting ? > in which case > my response might be > gee whilikers, what did your last servant die of? > and > holy moly, don't you guys have any real business to > discuss? > and > i hear there's a real purty lookin hotel with real > meetin rooms > right down the road > so hit it > > >If you don't want any rules than so be it (or > minimal rules > >such as no commercial soliciting and no personal > attacks)... > > so be it? > them's the house rules, take 'em or leave 'em > [as jean chretien would say] > > >But I think the list process should be fair game... > > why? > don't we have more important things to discuss? > > the host/owner called / calls the shots > including the list creation, the list options, the > list restrictions > the creating was not a democratic act > and neither is the maintenance, > i might add > > ono here comes another metaphor > why can't we leave the driving to the bus-driver? > who also happens to own the bus > who also does not happen to be charging any fare > and is paying for the gas out of her own pocket > you lot can talk about any dang thing you want > just stay in your dang seats > and quit yer twitchin > > why can't we accept the hospitality as it is > offered? > why don't we want to pay attention to our real > problems? > > >If enough people are fed up with pigs then the > subject will > >die. But choosing not to act is as powerful as > acting. Choosing > >not to protest is a tacit vote to keep on the same > subject until > >it runs out of steam (as I have chosen with > pigs)... > > i'm afraid i can't follow this > > >As the list co-leader your opinion is magnified > significantly kind of > >like Napoleon in Animal Farm (a pig!!). " Some > animals are more equal > >than others." So your words are heard loud and > clear. I think that > >you set the unwritten rules with your considerable > writing talents and > >the esteem people hold you in.... > > maybe my voice is magnified by becoming a list-mom > but i don't think the tune has changed one whit > > do you know that in my very first message to the > list > in october 1995 > there was a similar list kefuffle > and i expressed the exact same opinion then as now > i told barb not to change it > and bless her lil heart > she hasn't! > > i look on this facility as a blessing in my life > > however, > and not to minimize barb's efforts, > the bare-bones structure could be a listserv in > toronto, > or a bbs in los angeles, or a major-domo in leeds, > or a bulletin board at the piggly-wiggly grocery > store in the sky, > that part doesn't matter to me > other than its existence > > what does matter to me > is the communication between us, worldwide and > instant, > about the toughest, scariest parts of our lives > === message truncated === _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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