Bravo, Dr. Meyer! > ---------- > From: Charles T. Meyer, M.D.[SMTP:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 10:27 AM > Subject: Re: you are cordially invited... > > HI Janet and all, > > > I think that the main difference between us has to do with the conception > of > there being a bus driver or not. And intentions of that driver. Yes there > is a > bus driver but IMHO she (Barb Patterson) has elected to allow us to drive > the > bus ourselves except in rare cases where an executive decision has to be > made. > This allows for wide latitude and certainly criticism of the process. If > I am > wrong I would like to hear it from her. > > I have written answers to your reply to my letter below. > > Please read: > > > janet paterson wrote: > > > hi all > > > > At 19:53 1999/08/04 -0500, charlie wrote: > > >Hi Janet, > > >I have to disagree with you about the analogy of being > > >invited to dinner and criticizing the list . I see us as > > >a family all with different personalities needs and desires. > > >What you are saying if this is true is let us argue politics, > > >pigs or whatever but don't comment on the process- the hidden > > >rules which are operative.. > > > > i'm having trouble following this - hidden rules? > > > > >I think we both agree that the list will not survive as more > > >than a place to play and chat if opinion is censored or so strongly > > >discouraged that people are discouraged from posting. But it will > > >also be in danger if we are discouraged from commenting on the list > > >process as we see it.... > > > > danger? what danger? > > I think that leads dissatisfied people to leave the list cutting the > diversity > that we have- diversity is our strength. While at times it may be > uncomfortable it allows dissenters to get things out in the open. You > can't > talk about democracy without allowing dissent. > > > > > > > >We then become a pseudomutual family like a 50's sitcom > > >where everything is perfect on the outside but under the > > >surface mom hates dad, dad is screwing with his secretary, > > >the kids are alcoholic because the family is not being real > > >with each other.... > > > > i can't relate this to my dinner metaphor > > or to the list's existence > > > > I think when dissent is suppressed the rules become "Everything is fine > and if > there is dissent then there is something wrong with the dissenter rather > than > the family (the list)" At times people allow things to eat at them- as > I, and > apparently many others did with Pigs- and become inactive or leave. > > > > > you are talking about a true family > > whose structure is inherent in its roots and in its origins > > a woman and a man who have made vows to each other, > > who have born children together, who have legal and moral and > > emotional obligations to and expectations of each other > > > > the list is just a structure, a framework, a cyber megaphone, a hall > rental > > offered by the owner who could be anyone, granted, for virtually free > use > > by anyone to communicate with anyone else > > hopefuly about pd, in this case > > > > imho > > the communication among all the individuals > > is what creates the family-like-ness > > [and it's only a likeness, an ethereal shadow in cyber space] > > not the list structure > > > > the members of this cyber family > > have no obligations to or expectations of > > anything except maybe a little tolerance and common courtesy > > > > But that is precisely the problem. I don't think that monopolization of > the > list is courteous. I also don't think it bad to protest- even if it gets > a > little rough like David did with Carole. Unfortunately instead of coming > out as > a suggestion earlier it came out as a tirade now. That precisely is the > reason > why David "should" have stayed part of the list and he "should" have let > her > know he was upset with her much earlier. > > > > > > if barb wanted to fold up the tent and go south > > there's no 'real' family structure i.e. marriage, parenthood, etc. here > > to hold her back, is there? > > > > the structure exists here because she built it herself > > out of her own will and generosity > > > > And we ought to hear from her as to her conception of the list "rules". > If > protest is forbidden or strongly discouraged, it is Barb's show, I've > got the > rules wrong and I'll fold up my tent and go quietly. But I don't see it > that > way. I see the need for the list to have feedback mechanisms intact. to > correct its course. This is needed by all complex social systems to > survive. > To the boat analogy, if the captain doesn't get the feedback from his > senses > and instruments he stands a good chance of going around in circles. > > > > > > >We in the past have clashed on this issue and never resolved it. > > >I think that it is necessary that people not be discouraged from > > >stating their displeasure with the list... > > > > we still don't agree > > and i still can't follow your viewpoint > > > > i don't think your extension of the family metaphor is relevant > > The family analogy does hold IMO. While you are right that there is no > legal > bond that holds us together there is the bond of PD- which while allowing > certainly a more open system than a family- it still is a social system, > > > if i were to extend the dinner metaphor > > i might make it a pd support group holding its regular meeting in my > house > > in that case > > you wouldn't be getting chili and beer > > so you couldn't complain about them > > but i might hear > > sheesh do we have to sit in this room with that gawdawful painting? > > and when was this place vacuumed last, anyway? > > and why is the coffee taking so long? > > and why in heck did you have to tell the jones' about this meeting ? > > in which case > > my response might be > > gee whilikers, what did your last servant die of? > > and > > holy moly, don't you guys have any real business to discuss? > > and > > i hear there's a real purty lookin hotel with real meetin rooms > > right down the road > > so hit it > > The impolite guest analogy implies that it is your house. If it is and I > am > not satisfied I will leave of my own accord. But if it is a true cyber > democracy then it is our clubhouse not your house and it is my duty to say > folks we ought to vacuum this place etc. > > > > >If you don't want any rules than so be it (or minimal rules > > > such as no commercial soliciting and no personal attacks)... > > > > > so be it? > > them's the house rules, take 'em or leave 'em > > [as jean chretien would say] > > That is twice in a row you essentially said take it or leave it. With > your new > position that becomes a threat rather than a statement whether you mean it > or > not. That cuts off debate if we were to let it. > > > >But I think the list process should be fair game... > > > > why? > > don't we have more important things to discuss? > > > > Like Pigs an Vito?? > > > > > the host/owner called / calls the shots > > including the list creation, the list options, the list restrictions > > the creating was not a democratic act > > and neither is the maintenance, > > i might add > > > ono here comes another metaphor > > > why can't we leave the driving to the bus-driver? > > who also happens to own the bus > > who also does not happen to be charging any fare > > and is paying for the gas out of her own pocket > > you lot can talk about any dang thing you want > > just stay in your dang seats > > and quit yer twitchin > > > > why can't we accept the hospitality as it is offered? > > why don't we want to pay attention to our real problems? > > Like it or not these are our collective problem. That is the way a social > system works. > > > > > > > >If enough people are fed up with pigs then the subject will > > >die. But choosing not to act is as powerful as acting. Choosing > > >not to protest is a tacit vote to keep on the same subject until > > >it runs out of steam (as I have chosen with pigs)... > > > > i'm afraid i can't follow this > > Lack of protest can be as powerful as protest. It can be a signal to the > group > that people are satisfied. When there was little cry about the pig issue > it > was a sign to the "pig-lovers (said with no derision intended)" that > nobody > objected and go ahead and continue to discuss pigs. > > > > > > > >As the list co-leader your opinion is magnified significantly kind of > > >like Napoleon in Animal Farm (a pig!!). " Some animals are more equal > > >than others." So your words are heard loud and clear. I think that > > >you set the unwritten rules with your considerable writing talents and > > >the esteem people hold you in.... > > > > maybe my voice is magnified by becoming a list-mom > > but i don't think the tune has changed one whit > > No! When you say something it carries considerably more weight whether you > intend it or not. > > > > > > > > do you know that in my very first message to the list > > in october 1995 > > there was a similar list kefuffle > > and i expressed the exact same opinion then as now > > i told barb not to change it > > and bless her lil heart > > she hasn't! > > > > i look on this facility as a blessing in my life > > > > however, > > and not to minimize barb's efforts, > > the bare-bones structure could be a listserv in toronto, > > or a bbs in los angeles, or a major-domo in leeds, > > or a bulletin board at the piggly-wiggly grocery store in the sky, > > that part doesn't matter to me > > other than its existence > > > > what does matter to me > > is the communication between us, worldwide and instant, > > about the toughest, scariest parts of our lives > > which some of us can share with no-one else > > > > >The prime directive becomes "Don't criticize the list... > > > > nope > > the prime directive has never been that > > the prime directive is sharing and talking about pd > > Agreed ! I exaggerated for effect, but then when does non-PD stuff become > too > much? > > > > > > > >"Now with your new position that is strengthened even more... > > > > maybe > > but i've always been a ton more vocal than barb > > and the song is still the same old song > > > > >we don't complain (as a family member should but a guest shouldn't). > Are > > >the complainers guests or are they family members? If they are part of > > >the family then they have a right and perhaps even a duty to complain > if > > >they are guests they should be polite and suffer in silence and leave- > > >smiling but dissatisfied... > > > > this is not a 'real' family > > it's a cyberial ethereal replication of a shadow of a family > > similar to the way that a three dimensional [as opposed to ethereal] > > support group can become 'family-like' > > > > No it is not a real family. But the statement that" it is a blessing on > my > life" says it means much to you see it as a powerful system that you have > a > more than a casual investment in (as do I and a large proportion of the > regulars on the list) > > > > > > this lecture has been presented free of charge > > with assistance from one pansy-bell > > > > janet > > > > janet paterson > > 52 now / 41 dx / 37 onset > > snail-mail: PO Box 171 Almonte Ontario K0A 1A0 Canada > > website: a new voice <http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Village/6263/> > > e-mail: <[log in to unmask]> > > -- > ************************************************************************** > **************** > > Charles T. Meyer, M.D. > Middleton (Madison), Wisconsin > [log in to unmask] > ************************************************************************** > **************** >