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Important as this issue is, I suspect it is undebateable in this forum. I say this because the two sides are arguing about totally different things. It seems to me obvious that if an embryo is a separate human life, killing it is the same as killing any other human and the debate should be about whether we as a society can justify institutionalising the killing of large numbers of our population in order to maintain the living standards of the rest of the population (not to mention the health of some of that population). It seems to me equally obvious that if an embryo is not a separate human life, but merely a piece of human tissue in the same way that a kidney, liver, cornea, lung or heart is human tissue then the debate about aborting such tissue is meaningless and the debate should be centered on the ethics of organ transplant. What is not obvious - to me or anyone else- is which of the above is correct. In the absence of a definitive, indisputable, 'moment of becoming human' we each form our own opinion. What then seems to happen is that when these (in broad terms) two bodies of opinion clash, each dismisses the others primary position (the humanity or otherwise of an embryo) as being ridiculous and then, claiming the moral high ground, proceeds to conduct the argument relevant to their own position. With one side debating genocide and the other tissue transplants it's no wonder the debate is making no progress. So it might help take some heat out of the discussion if we keep in mind that there are two debates rolled into one; that however well argued, and passionately believed in, our own viewpoint (whichever it is) rests on an unprovable premise; and that stating that premise as if it were an absolute does not make it so. It seems likely that this debate, both here and in society at large, is going to continue - could we, at least here, treat each other with respect. Dennis. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dennis Greene 49/dx 37/ onset 32 There's nothing wrong with me that a cure for PD won't fix! email - [log in to unmask] Website - http://members.networx.net.au/~dennisg/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++