* * * * * * * * * * * * * W A R N I N G * * * * * * * * * * * * *
     * * * There is absolutely no PD content in this note at all * * *

Hi again all,

        janet,  thanks  for the reply.  And, aside from me being up to
     no good (a topic I'd be glad to chat about  elsewhere  :-)  ),  I
     just have to say you grok again, gal!  Big Time!

        Although I agree with you that the topic you replied to is far
     from off-topic in *any*  Internet  discussion-forum,  there  have
     been a few comments on-list about straying from the defined list-
     topic recently and I wanted to try to help those people  who  are
     only interested in Parkinson's Disease topics pass on this one if
     they wanted to.

        For  those  of  you  reading  this  that are not interested in
     anonymity and the Internet, hit your "D"elete message key now.  I
     feel  a brain dump coming on which usually means this is going to
     be a long one with absolutely no P.D. content at all.

        So, on Wed, 7 Jun 2000 the digest contained:

Date:    Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:29:05 -0400
From:    janet paterson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Just been a bit busy / konnektions / jannie-git-yer-gun

        On, Wed, 7 Jun 2000, janet paterson quoted what I wrote:

> >... Finally, (and completely of-topic) if anyone on-list knows  of
> >some  hackers  or phreaks who might be willing to help me, please
> >contact me off-list.  I have a need to positively identify  some-
> >one who is "bothering" me through proxy servers and anonymous re-
> >mailers -- I have been unsuccessful in my own efforts at  identi-
> >fying  them  and I am to the point where I want to pursue  prose-
> >cution....

        Let  me  clarify  the  situation.  I run another mailing list.
     Like this list, it has a defined discussion topic  which  is  any
     topic  about  the 60s and 70s American rock band Grand Funk Rail-
     road.  I've had anywhere between 250 and  350  subscribers  at  a
     time.   But,  a  few  of them have taken to try to e-abuse me and
     other subscribers to the list.

        My  Grand  Funk  Web site was one of the first two sites about
     the band on the 'Net.   This  distinction  and  my  mailing  list
     earned me a few privileges with the band during the 97 and 98 re-
     union tours.  Between the time the recent reunion started  in  96
     and  when  it broke up in 98 I attended 13 different shows around
     the country.  And, at a majority of these events, I was even giv-
     en back stage passes and access to the band members.

        As  other  fans started putting up Web sites about the band, a
     certain core clique sort of formed.  And, any time any of us were
     in  or  near the same area as each other -- usually for a show --
     we would get together.  In this core group, some  of  the  people
     started  perceiving  that  I (and a few others) were getting more
     attention from the band than they were.  So,  as  the  band  quit
     touring at the end of 98 some strange things started happening.

        Once  in a while, someone who identified themselves as !!JAN!!
     would sign up for a free Web e-mail  account,  establish  a  com-
     pletely  fake  identity,  set  up their Web browser to use one of
     several proxy servers (a proxy server guarantees that no  identi-
     fying  information  about you will be transferred to a Web site),
     and start verbally terrorizing subscribers on my  list.   When  I
     unsubscribed  that  address,  they  would sign up for a different
     one, establish a different fake identity, use a  different  proxy
     server and start all over again.  This went on through most of 98
     and into 99.

        Things  were  quiet for a short while.  But, recently -- in 00
     -- someone has popped up again and started  verbally  terrorizing
     me  and others while at the same time hacking (a term I use *very
     loosely* here) into our mailing list  software  and  sending  the
     list  messages  without  being  subscribed.   And, if that wasn't
     enough, myself and several others  have  been  continuously  sub-
     scribed   to  pornographic  newsletters  and  other  e-mail  spam
     sources.

        Anyway,  I'm tired of it and I want to ID this person and find
     some way to legally penalize them to the fullest  extent  of  the
     law.

> ...
> we are all co-pioneers out here in the Wild Wild West of the cyber-frontier
> where any one can pretend to be any one or two or three or more...
> if they so desire for whatever sad reason ...

        And  that  is so true.  What type of a pathetic little ego has
     to try to pump themselves up by taking on  a  fake  identity  and
     verbally  terrorizing other people who have done absolutely noth-
     ing to them?  What kind of a whacko is allowed to get on the 'Net
     and  threaten  some people and call others every name in the book
     and get off scott-free?  If they  did  the  exact  same  thin  in
     snail-mail, the FBI would be sent out after them, find them, haul
     their butt off to jail, and prosecute them fully?

        What  is so different about the 'Net that these creeps get off
     scott-free?

> ...
> luckily
> as long as we keep our cyber-radar and smell-o-meters in good working order
> such pretensions quickly reveal themselves as such ...

        And,  again janet, you're right.  In a one-on-one situation, a
     person can fairly quickly and somewhat easily identify  an  aber-
     rant  behavior  and then take steps to ignore them or filter them
     out of your in-box.

        Unfortunately,  I have a little more difficult time.  It isn't
     just me I have to think about, but  also  all  of  my  list  sub-
     scribers.  And, again, you're right if they keep a single identi-
     ty.  My problem-child is always a moving target.   I  never  know
     when  it will pop up, where it will pop up, or who it will pop up
     as.

> ...
> however
> deliberate "bothering" can be a more troublesome problem out here
> i have been deliberately "bothered" as well ...

        Having "been there," I completely identify and sympathize with
     your problem.  Again, your right, out here in cyber-space --  the
     new  Wild  Wild West as you so aptly described it -- is much more
     troublesome.

        As  the 'Net is a truly International medium, there don't seem
     to be any common laws to combat this type of  criminal  behavior.
     And,  when I contact a proxy provider to ask them to help me ID a
     cyber-creep, and when I get the typical "well ... if  they  haven
     broken some state or federal law ..."  it really pisses me off.

        If  I've  got  the  evidence  of  being verbally terrorized or
     threatened, I ought to be able to take it to  a  law  enforcement
     agency  and  have  them  force the proxy provider to identify the
     jerk so I can prosecute.  But, one of our members  actually  went
     as  far  as to contact a law enforcement agency.  The response he
     got was "well ... I understand your problem, I realize that  your
     upset, but there is really nothing we can do."

        Like hell there isn't!

> ...
> i think it raises issues that should be addressed openly;
> this affects all of us
>
> why do "anonymous re-mailers" exist on the internet at all? ...

        In  my  opinion, anonymous remailers were originally developed
     (*before* the Web!) to allow people to post  messages  in  USENET
     newsgroups  that they were interested in but that might cause em-
     barrassment to their employer or family  if  their  interest  was
     found out.

        But,  janet,  you're right.  These remailers have also allowed
     more ability for abuse than was their original intent.

> ...
> does "privacy" equal "anonymity"? ...

        In a word, "!*NO*!"

> ...
> when does "anonymity" change to "pretension" to "fraud"?
>
> when does "annoyance" change to "harrassment" to "stalking"? ...

        These are both good questions that *must* be answered and used
     to help create international laws that can be enforced.  The cur-
     rent  state  of affairs is ridiculous.  Anybody can get a free e-
     mail account, completely lie about who they are,  hide  behind  a
     proxy  server  or  an anonymous remailer, and spew filth and hate
     and spread lies to and about anybody  they  want.   When  they're
     done, they delete their account and set up another one.  And, the
     abuse cycles on.

        This has got to stop!

> ...
> having an e-mail address or a web-page
> doesn't "invite" or "encourage" or "condone" such "bothering"
> any more than having a postal address [a matter of public record]
> or a home phone number [ditto] does ...

        And, again janet, you are correct.  I do not see *ANY* differ-
     ence between a postal address and an e-mail address.  If  someone
     sends me a copy of Hustler Magazine and I didn't request it I can
     search that person out and prosecute them.

        But,  if  I get an e-mail address, set up a fake identity, and
     hide behind a proxy server, it is perfectly acceptable to send an
     abusive  and  terrorizing e-mail and rant and curse and swear and
     say questionable things about anybody and their parentage.   And,
     nobody can do a thing to me.

        This is wrong!

> ...
> my posts here [like yours] include my snail-mail address and my phone number
> for all list-members to share
>
> i feel no need for "privacy" or "anonymity" in this pd community ...

        I  am a little more liberal than you on this point.  I feel no
     need for anonymity in any forum.  As you pointed out, I have  al-
     ways included my address and phone number in my computer-generat-
     ed signature.  I realized years ago that if somebody was  out  to
     get  me, they were going to find me and there is really nothing I
     can do about it short of entering the Witness Protection Program.

        If I enter a 'Net forum that turns out to be inappropriate for
     me or my tastes, I leave.  If I find a 'Net forum that feels like
     family,  I  have  nothing  to hide.  I never try to pretend to be
     somebody I'm not.  I have very few skeletons in my  closet,  even
     fewer  secrets  to  keep, and most anything someone would want to
     know about me (except my social security and credit card numbers)
     is on my Web pages for the world to see.

        In  my  six  or seven years on the 'Net, this policy has never
     failed me.  I have been contacted in e-,  snail-,  and  real-life
     maybe  ten  times  and have never been harassed anywhere remotely
     near the extent that this cyber-jerk is doing on my mailing list.
     And, I am finally fed up with it.

        So,  my question still stands.  IF anybody out there in cyber-
     space can put me in contact with *anyone* who has  experience  in
     tracing  real,  actual  identities of anonymous cyber-terrorists,
     please contact me off-list.  I would like to solicit their  help.

        And, janet, again -- you understand, gal, you grok this issue.
     Thanks for your understanding.  And, for those of you  that  read
     this  far, let me thank you for reading and I hope my little rant
     made you think a little about this all too typical cyber-crime.

        Thank  you  all, take care, and always try to grok in fullness
     ...

Bill--
  ...who sometimes thinks that Chicken Little was right.

.. William A. Parrette ...... 7177 Heritage Drive ....+-- =''' ----------+
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