barb
this indeed is a great reply
the word rants gives a clue to the personality, however cd she is
the whole discussion though was productive and useful
seems to be *mostly* without rancourand enables people to air views and
opinions
suicide is a very personal thing and individuals make decisions based on the
perspectives, fears, circumstances and other things
i didnt know paige but respect her right to commit suicide or to spend her
days fighting pd
thanks for your post
it was valued and valuable
judy



>From: Barb_MSN <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: janet's rants on clinical depression (cd) and suicide
>Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 01:22:22 -0700
>
>Janet....
>
>With all due respect for the apparent agony you're
>feeling at the death of your friend, Paige, I feel
>impelled to write this to you.  I apologize for it's
>length - but wrote till I ran out of words.
>
>The terrible sadness and pain, the sense of loss, and
>the great void Paige's death - her self-destruction -
>caused in your life seems to haunt you, causing you to
>feel a strong need to keep bringing up this loss
>long after everyone else on this tiny corner
>of Cyberspace who cared for Paige let her rest in
>the peace she surely didn't have in life.
>
>MOST folks logging onto the Parkinson's List didn't
>know your friend Paige, yet ALL were polite and
>thoughtful in letting you and others who cared for
>Paige carry your public grief to it's natural end some
>weeks after Paige died.
>
>At that time you posted your feelings of pain in your
>poetry in our public forum.  Once again you also shared
>your thoughts and feelings with us all about clinical
>and general depression.  You shared your feelings
>about taking one's own life - suicide.  And no one said
>"please stop already,"
>
>At  that time there was extensive public email about
>clinical depression and suicide. Those who didn't
>want to have a public conversation on those two topics
>pretty much kept THAT to themselves or in PRIVATE
>email so as not to cause you further pain by seeming not
>to care about your painful loss (when indeed most
>of us care and deeply about you).
>
>When I logged on just now I was saddened to see that
>you'd reposted your poetry - your RANTS as you
>called them - and seem to continue feeling a need to
>drag the sad ghost of Paige once again from her
>earthly grave and after moaning and groaning, beating
>yout breast (virtually), and calling not only OUR attention
>but OTHER folks on OTHER Lists attention to YOUR loss,
>DEMANDING that we all must be clinically depressed
>and thinking about  suicide if we live with chronic
>disease.
>
>Well old Cyber-friend of mine... old Cyber-friend of OURS...
>I_ say, enough's enough!  LET GO OF PAIGE.  Let her
>TRULY "rest in peace."  PAIGE IS DEAD, and SHE
>chose the time, the day. and the place SHE wanted to
>leave THIS world for another.
>
>By continuing to drag this into the open, week after
>week, you're exhibiting a painful craving for attention
>for JANET - NOT for PAIGE.
>
>I urge you again, Janet - LET GO OF PAIGE.
>
>The following is said by me only.  It's my opinion
>based upon "knowing" and respectign Janet for
>about 6 years on a near daily basis via written
>List-exchanges.  So Janet, don't think that this is
>some kind of group "thing" coming down on you.
>It's MY feelings I'm expressing.
>
>If anyone else wants to discuss my comments or Janet's,
>please let's keep it in private email so no public offense
>will take place inadvertently.
>
>I think you might need to see a professional counselor
>about your feelings about GROUP clinical depression,
>and why you personally hold that topic so dear, when
>most other folks, if and/or when they realize THEY are
>having a serious bout of depression  WANT to get
>over it - if possible... and to STOP it from becoming
>an ongoing clinical condition --- if possible.
>
>Janet - the Parkinson's List is FOR people who
>have or in some way LIVE or KNOW someone
>with PARKINSON'S DISEASE and all that comes
>from living with PD.   It's not the "CHRONIC clinical
>depression List" or the "Chronic-thinking-about-suicide-
>List," and I venture MOST folks on the PD List would
>prefer not to seemingly -- REPEATEDLY,
>*CHRONICLY*-- find those two topics shoved down
>their throats on a regular basis.
>
>One last thing, Janet.... It took a lot for me to get
>involved in this kind of commentary at this time.  I've got
>my own personal hob-goblins to deal with now and I'm
>functioning mostly on sheer will power.. I'd MUCH
>prefer not to act like 2 cats fighting over the still-warm
>body of a dead mouse after you receive this message.
>
>With caring friendship for you and respect for your loss....
>
>Barb Mallut
>[log in to unmask]
>
>--Original Message-----
>From: Janet Paterson <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>Date: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 10:30 PM
>Subject: janet's rants on clinical depression (cd) and suicide
>
>
> >cross-posted to the park place and to the parkinson forum at mgh:
> >
> >
> >janet's rants on clinical depression (cd) and suicide
> >
> >
> >i am a member of the 'big' pd mailing list
> >and participated in cyber-discussions about
> >the pan forum and the glad and sad news presented
> >there. the news about paige broke my heart and
> >produced the following bits of 'rants' of mine
> >in the subsequent cyber-discussions.
> >
> >for whatever it may be worth,
> >all of my messages to the pd list
> >are on the wwweb at my wwwebsite
> >"http://www.geocities.com/janet313/"
> >
> >we are all cyber-siblings when it comes to pd
> >and that goes double for cd
> >
> >with love
> >
> >janet paterson
> >
> >"[log in to unmask]"
> >
> >
> >-----jant rant part
>one----------------------------------------------
> >
> >might i present a theorem of cause and effect:
> >
> >IF:
> >1. suicide is virtually always 'caused' by cd
> >AND:
> >2. cd is totally absolutely CURABLE with treatment
> >AND:
> >3. cd is the most common of ALL 'disabilities' world wide
> >THEN:
> >4. cd is the most under-diagnosed and under-treated 'disability'
>world wide
> >AND:
> >5. suicide is a leading and growing cause of death among young
>adults
> >HUH?
> >
> >something is sadly and tragically wrong with this 'theorem'
>picture
> >
> >why?
> >
> >because of the
> >toxic shame still attached
> >[which we as a society still attach]
> >to 'emotional weakness' or 'mental disorders'
> >
> >we parkies, of all people,
> >who know first-hand and in-our-face
> >what havoc a little 'glitch' in our brain chemistry can cause,
> >are no less caught up in that toxic-shame/keep-it-hidden cycle
> >when it comes to the 50% of us
> >who deal with cd too
> >
> >maybe some of us did 'miss' paige's pain,
> >but my guess is that she also made a great effort to hide it,
> >due to our mutual and societal collective brain-washing-staining
> >
> >quick survey:
> >how did you all feel when i mentioned 'tears' earlier today
> >in response to the news about paige?
> >should i have 'kept it quiet'?
> >'not made a fuss'?
> >or what?
> >
> >-----jant rant part
>two-----------------------------------------------
> >
> >if only ...
> >i might have ...
> >maybe we should've ...
> >
> >i have heard of too many pd-related suicides
> >it's giving pd a bad name
> >
> >as a veteran of 12 years of pd [as diagnosed]
> >and 10 years of cd [as diagnosed]
> >i tend to think that cd is the more insidious
> >
> >at least with pd and sinemet
> >there's a little relief in the symptoms
> >good hard evidence of a little light at the end of the tunnel now
>and again
> >
> >with cd my thinking becomes so negative,
> >that i can't imagine any other way or time or being;
> >i can't imagine anything; i can barely think at all
> >
> >being a parkie doesn't mean i can't be perky at the same time
> >
> >being in cd can make me feel worse than
> >if i had ms, pd, als, psp, and msa combined
> >and [this is the real kicker]
> >even if i had none of the above
> >
> >cd sucks the joy and the possibility
> >out of every single aspect and moment of life
> >
> >cd causes 'paralysis of will' which imho is profoundly
> >more debilitating than pd
> >
> >cd distorts and twists ordinary thinking patterns
> >into downward spiraling and self perptuating
> >doom and gloom prophesies
> >[which are way beyond the reach of any ideas about 'bootstraps']
> >viz my little attempt at a scriptlette:
> >[help me out here, carole, huh?]
> >
> >"research? it'll be a cold day in hell ..."
> >"mjf? he's just in it for the sympathy ..."
> >"hope? are you nuts?" "they are all blowing hot air"
> >"forum? what's the use .. the nih is just a cash hog"
> >"no, i just can't bear the idea of having to see a shrink"
> >"there's never going to be a cure ... don't waste my time"
> >"i'll never figure out this dsse form ... i can't concentrate ...
> >bernie is crazy if he thinks i'm going to spend all day filling
>in all this
> >stuff" ...
> >"i will never get any better - it's hopeless"
> >"no, i don't want to talk to anyone, take a message"
> >"so what if i haven't been out of the house in a month ...
> >there's nothing out there i haven't seen before ... i don't want
>to go out"
> >"i can't stop wanting to cry ... what a fool i am ..."
> >"the men in the white coats are going to come get me if i let
>on..."
> >"this new med will never work so there's no point in trying
>it..."
> >"maybe i'll get out of bed tomorrow, i can't face anything
>today..."
> >"... i forgot my meds again, what's the point ... "
> >"why can't i get myself out of this? i must be losing my mind ...
>"
> >"this pain is unbearable already and it keeps getting worse ..."
> >"all my friends have deserted me... they can't stand me anymore
>..."
> >"... i can't stand me anymore ..."
> >
> >and on and on ad nauseum
> >and eventually to utter despair
> >and ultimately maybe to suicide
> >
> >we are hoping against hope for a cure for pd
> >imagine having a cure for it right now
> >maybe even for the past five years
> >and hardly anyone is taking it
> >because of toxic shame
> >and society stereotypically saying
> >there's nothing wrong with you that a little willpower won't fix
> >
> >boggles the mind...
> >
> >-----jant rant part
>three---------------------------------------------
> >
> >i also have no intention or desire
> >to cause pain or embarrassment to paige's loved ones
> >or to diminish our respect for paige's memory in any way
> >
> >this is such an important issue
> >every time we lose another soul to suicide
> >i feel it more and more deeply
> >
> >i have been looking at paige's website and other web-pages again
> >[thank you murray for your magnificent digging [!]]
> >
> >imho
> >the person who wrote those words was not in depression, period.
> >no one mired in cd could express even one percent of that energy.
> >the spark that jumps out of her words is from her unfettered and
>joyous
> >spirit.
> >
> >i can remember while mired in cd
> >not being 'able' to read some of my own posts
> >because they 'made my eyes hurt'
> >
> >the joy
> >[or the memory of the joy]
> >[or the reminder of the loss of that joy]
> >in them was too much to bear
> >
> >so i must make an assumption that somewhere somehow paige
> >hit a major bump in her path which changed her thinking processes
> >and enabled the dreaded cd downward spiral to take over
> >
> >bernie's note tends to confirm my assumption
> >but for the sake of clarity in digging out the true 'cause' of
>this tragic
> >'effect'
> >i would suggest that your words might need a tad bit of
>correction:
> >
> >>Depression, along with PD, and some other physical
> >>issues, all contributed to her impulsive act ...
> >
> >imho, the physical issues do not 'cause' suicide
> >viz: christopher reeve and stephen hawking are still stirring up
>'trouble'
> >
> >the 'physical issues' may 'make us feel' a certain way
>physically,
> >but they do not 'make us feel' any particular way emotionally or
> >intellectually
> >
> >the way we think about things,
> >the way we perceive the world we think we live in, creates our
>emotions
> >
> >in most cases we have a choice of
> >how we perceive and thus how we think and thus how we feel
> >
> >[which is what my wysiwyg times three pome is all about]
> >
> >which can be one heck of a concept to wrap one's brain around
> >
> >i've been working on it for a few years now
> >and i think i'm starting to 'get it'
> >
> >any old timers here will testify to the fact
> >that i've been harping on the subject of "perceptions" since july
>1997
> >
> >why do i know the date and the timing so well?
> >that's when i got the gumption to 'go public' again
> >after my cd fog lifted and the world i had previously known
> >[the world that i had almost forgotten had ever existed]
> >came back into my viewfinder
> >
> >maybe i'm splitting hairs here, bernie,
> >but i think i will feel compelled to keep splitting any that i
>come across
> >until this 'most common disability world wide'
> >which is also the 'most under-diagnosed' one and
> >which has the most tragic and totally needless final symptom as
>its
> >'effect'
> >is not only wrassled to the ground
> >but is stomped all over and
> >defeated into the dust
> >
> >one further clarification
> >awhile back up the page i said:
> >
> >>in most cases we have a choice of
> >>how we perceive and thus how we think and thus how we feel
> >
> >the unique and dastardly thing about cd is that it robs us of
>that choice
> >it is not a physical disability like blindness or paralysis
> >but a measurable bio-physio-chemical change
> >in the chemical balance in a specific part of the brain
> >
> >the causes of the said imbalance can be all sorts of things:
> >heredity, emotional trauma, pharmacological, physical, etc. etc
> >
> >maybe my 'getting' the concept of even *having* a choice
> >in how i perceive things, in how i respond emotionally to my
>world,
> >was that much more of a shock to me since, at the time,
> >i was in the process of scraping away the cd muck
> >and could barely comprehend the idea of
> >feeling any emotions anyway
> >let alone having
> >control of
> >them
> >
> >so this is jant's rant's summary for today:
> >
> >1. physical disabilities do not cause cd
> >2. cd is caused by a brain chemistry change
> >3. which is reversible and curable
> >3.a. but
> >4. which change manifests itself in expression of negative
>emotions
> >5. which are considered "no-go" territory in our society
> >5.a. why? you tell me ...
> >6. which results in cd wrassling too many of us to the ground
>instead of
> >the reverse
> >
> >janet
> >so grateful to be here and now
> >
> >=================================================================
>=====
> >
> >janet paterson
> >53 now / 41 dx pd / 37 onset pd / 44 dx cd / 43 onset cd
> >tel: 613 256 8340 url: "http://www.geocities.com/janet313/"
> >email: "[log in to unmask]" smail: PO Box 171 Almonte Ontario
>K0A 1A0 Canada

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