Rick;

More Betels grist too share with the mill;

 John Lennon, British musician (1940-1980).
Lennon rejected religion and dogma, but he was not really an atheist - he
espoused a sort of vague spirituality.
From the song "Imagine"
"Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us
only sky, imagine all the people Living for today. . .
Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or die
for, No religion too ."

From the song, "God,"
"God is a concept By which we measure Our pain
I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-Ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in Tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus"

And, from the song, "I Found Out"
"There ain't no Jesus gonna come from the sky Now that I found out I know I
can cry, I found out! "



Old hippies unite!

Ned

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick McGirr" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 8:39 AM
Subject: You're OK too, Ned!


> Your quotes are some good grist for the mill of those who would say that
> the US was founded as a Christian nation.  My favorite Jefferson quote,
> and I had to go grab it off the web 'cause I couldn't remember the whole
> thing:
>
> "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or
> no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
>
> That sums up a lot in a few words.  I'm actually going to a debate tonight
> at SUNY Buffalo:
> David Koepsell and Steve Crampton: A Debate:  "Is the US a Christian
> Nation?"
> Friday, March 25, 7 pm. UB Knox 104
> Increasingly, those who support the use of the term "under God" in the
> pledge, or displays of the Ten Commandments on governmental property,
> argue that these are justified because we are, after all, a "Christian
> Nation."
>
>
> David Koepsell is the executive director of the Council for Secular
> Humanism.  He holds a Ph.D. in philosophy and J.D. from State University
> of New York at Buffalo.
>
>
> Steve Crampton is the Chief Counsel for the American Family Association
> Center for Law & Policy in Tupelo, Mississippi.
>
> It's very tricky for one to advocate that which one sees as right.  I
> detest a lot of what I see, but I don't attack it.  Crazy me, I go for the
> ideas behind the nasty realities, just as your quotes have exposed the
> true thoughts of some great Americans.   It takes decades and lots of
> input for one's world-views to change.  Just ask my wife.  We have slowly
> changed each other over 25 years.  But neither one of us would have
> changed much if we had felt brow-beaten.   Here's another quote from one
> of my favorite philosophers...
>
> "Love is the answer."
>
> John Lennon
>
> I'm just an old hippie anyway.
>
> By the way, I know what you mean about trying to be nicey-nicey when you
> always feel like you're running out of time.
>
> Enjoy!
> Rick McGirr
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ned Gardner" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 10:01 AM
> Subject: Re: stay out of my death, Mary Ann
>
>
>> Rick:
>> If physical fighting were an option for me  I would not be here.  PD
>> allows
>> it's hosts
>> sometime to contemplate the future and what the unwelcome alliance will
>> bring.
>> I see PIEN as a place to share the individuals thought process along that
>> evolutional journey.
>> These are just ideas that are bounced around here not brick bats.
>> Perhaps
>> PD has
>> muted my ability to make nice chit chat.
>>
>> Ned
>>
>> Powers that be.
>>
>> Abraham Lincoln
>> "The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never
>> give
>> assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
>>
>> - Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).
>>
>> Benjamin Franklin
>>
>> "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed
>> myself from Christian assemblies."
>>
>> "Lighthouses are more helpful then churches."
>>
>> -Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
>>
>> Frank Lloyd Wright
>>
>> "I believe in God, only I spell it Nature."
>>
>> American architect (1869-1959)
>>
>> Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain"
>>
>> "Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
>>
>> "If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a
>> Christian."
>>
>> "It (the Bible) is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some
>> clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and
>> a
>> wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies."
>>
>> "A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned
>> out
>> for what he knows."
>>
>> Thomas Jefferson
>>
>> "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
>> maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of
>> ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will
>> always
>> avail themselves for their own purpose. " - Thomas Jefferson to Baron von
>> Humboldt, 1813
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Rick McGirr" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: stay out of my death, Mary Ann
>>
>>
>> > Hey, Ned,
>> > Religious discussion is fine.  We do a lot of it, because we have a
>> > lot to talk about.  But even as Rayilyn and Mary Ann continue their
>> > discussion, we remember this is a *support* group.  I would advise
>> > another vehicle if you just want to pick a fight.
>> >
>> > If you want to fight somebody, fight the powers that be.
>> >
>> > Bible: speck/plank
>> > Rick
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Ned Gardner" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:11 AM
>> > Subject: Re: stay out of my death, Mary Ann
>> >
>> >
>> >> Marry Ann:
>> >>
>> >> Please tell why you  think you could ever make your moral agenda a
>> > priority
>> >> ray Ray.
>> >> To think any one so disposed would attempt
>> >> such, on a physically compromised person like Ray is unconscionable.
>> >>
>> >> Nurse heal thy self.
>> >>
>> >> Ned
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Mary Ann Ryan" <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 9:30 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: stay out of my death, Mary Ann
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >> it would be  more than convenient  for ME  if you  would mind
>> > your own
>> >> >> business. Nobody is taking care of me who would be
>> > "inconvenienced" by my
>> >> >> death.
>> >> >>
>> >> > Sorry, Ray.  The law is on my side.  If you insist on attempting
>> > suicide,
>> >> > everyone and anyone has the right to save you.
>> >> >
>> >> > As a nurse I have witnessed the wonderful results of Hospice care.
>> >> > Frequently people get better once Hospice enters the pictures.
>> > I'm sorry
>> >> > that you mom had problems with the Morphine patch - there are a
>> > host of
>> >> > other medications that might have been a better option.
>> >> >
>> >> > At any rate, if you wish that no extraordinary measures be
>> > employed in
>> >> > your
>> >> > case you certainly have the right to make yourself a "No Code"
>> > and/or call
>> >> > in Hospice in order to make sure that your request is followed.
>> > Believe
>> >> > me - they will make sure that no one extra shred of therapy
>> > (including
>> >> > antibiotics) will be utilized to keep you alive - and they will
>> > keep you
>> >> > comfortable while you are dying.
>> >> >
>> >> > You have a way of trying to make policy for not just you, but for
>> >> > everyone.
>> >> > When you stand behind assisted suicide as a policy, I'll challenge
>> > you
>> >> > every
>> >> > time.  There have been way too many abuses in assisted suicide
>> > cases.
>> >> > Don't
>> >> > forget - Kevorkian did his dirty work in my State of Michigan;
>> > practically
>> >> > in my own back yard.  I get the shivers every time I think of that
>> > man.
>> >> > -------------\
>> >> > God bless
>> >> > Mary Ann
>> >> >
>> >>
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