RAY,  I believe  I follow the religion of the Bible as best  as  I can and
I rely  on the grace of Jesus  for the  rest..A man naned,   Thomas
Campbell of the 19th century  said on one occasion:     "speak where the
Bible speaks and be silent where it is silent"

At 08:41 PM 3/21/2005, you wrote:
>Dave
>
>What  I was referring to was the theological beliefs  of the various
>religions, e.g. Buddhists  don't believe in God, Jews don't believe Christ
>was  the Son of God, Christians do, Mormons believe in a god of flesh and
>bone although they  differ on ESCR (Senator Orrin Hatch and my  cousin).
>
>Episcopalians for some reason seem to  favor stem cell  research (Senator
>McCain and my old  high school friend)  Stem  cells weren't around when
>these religions started so there  is a difference of opinion among
>religions, but I do think the core beliefs  stay  the same  I don't think
>you can be a Muslim and not believe in Allah.  If you  were a Christian
>Scientist or follower  of Ernest Holmes Religious Science you  would believe
>you  could cure  yourself.
>My best friend, a Christian Scientist, who just  died of cancer supported
>stem cell  research  and thought there was nothing wrong with having an
>abortion.  I  don't think these positions had anything to do  with  CS as
>Mary Baker Eddy never addressed them.  In the end my friend went with
>aggressive chemo which I never  understood.
>
>I think the various  religions are in the  process maybe of establishing
>their  positions on  the SC issue.  The main opposition seems to be coming
>from Catholics and evangelicals according to  Diane W's posts to me.
>
>What faith  do you  follow Dave?
>Ray
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Morerland" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:04 PM
>Subject: Re: Moral certainty re science and religion
>
>
>>Ray
>>f I thought that religion  never change and was not self correcting. I
>>would  not be  hanging  around    I have coffee with our Pastor
>>at least once  each  week and i would like to think that i have helped to
>>change his mind on a lot of issues  that are near and dear
>>to  you and  me,   he believes   that he must grow in personal  views and
>>his  sermons reflect his growth. the only exception     are   the
>>sacraments.
>>
>>
>>Yours and His
>>
>>David L  Moreland
>>
>>
>>10:11 AM 3/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>Wendy\\
>>>
>>>Science is self-correcting, example, quantum physics  and chaos science
>>>tells us more than classical physics and are  improvements.   Religion is
>>>not self-correcting that  is why  it is different from  science.  Science
>>>searches for truth  - religion  has found it.
>>>Yep, I'm sure of this.
>>>Ray
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Wendy Siegel" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 2:51 PM
>>>Subject: Re: Moral certainty
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ray:
>>>>Are you CERTAIN about that? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself!) Science
>>>>once taught the earth was flat. Things that science has PROVEN are being
>>>>dis-proven every day.
>>>>
>>>>Wendy
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network
>>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of rayilynlee
>>>>Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 12:12 PM
>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>Subject: Re: Moral certainty
>>>>
>>>>Moral  certainty is the cause  of  wars,  bigotry, intolerance and much
>>>>suffering.  The person who is  certain  he  is right about as  yet
>>>>unanswerable  questions is a tremendous obstacle to progress.
>>>>Education
>>>>teaches  you  how much  you don't  know and defines the  boundaries of
>>>>your
>>>>knowledge.
>>>>
>>>>My education tells me a cell is a cell and there is  good  reason  to
>>>>call
>>>>it a cell, not a  person.  I need  to hear some good reasons why  a cell
>>>>is
>>>>a  person to change my mind, not ooh  don't  name-call.
>>>>
>>>>Rayilyn Brown, MA  major History. minor Philosophy, UCLA
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Ned Gardner" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:25 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Don:
>>>>>
>>>>>Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more
>>>>>uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is
>>>>right
>>>>>and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the
>>>>work
>>>>>of
>>>>>men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have
>>>>whooped
>>>>>them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always
>>>>>skeptical and tolerant.
>>>>>-- H. L. Mencken, Minority Report (1956)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Ned
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Don Mckinley" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 2:32 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-------Original Message-------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network
>>>>>>Date: 03/15/05 02:07:15
>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ned:
>>>>>>What is "the wrong turn" is just a matter of opinion, not fact, but I
>>>>>>can see this discussion is leading nowhere, and the problem of
>>>>finding a
>>>>>>way to come to consensus continues. :( If you would like to continue
>>>>>>this discussion, I think we should take it off the list, but I think
>>>>it
>>>>>>is a waste of time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wendy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network
>>>>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ned Gardner
>>>>>>Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 7:28 AM
>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wendy:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What would that compromise be?  Either we do all that is necessary to
>>>>>>end PD
>>>>>>or we continue  being led down the path taking all the wrong turns
>>>>being
>>>>>>lead  by those who's primary symbol they march behind is one of
>>>>capitol
>>>>>>punishment.        ( the cross )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Ned
>>>>>>
>>>>>>wendy NED WE NEED TO WORK TO GETER WHO IS RIGHT I DON'T KNOW I BEEN
>>>>>>FIGHTING PD FOR 35 YEARS I DO WHAT    IT TAKES TO BEAT IT I DON'T ASK
>>>>GOD
>>>>>>TO
>>>>>>FIGHT IT FOR ME BUT BELIVE IN GOD GOD I DO NOT UNDER STAND WHAT IS
>>>>THE
>>>>>>TROUBEL I AASK NO HEL I DO FOR MY SELF BUT AM HEAR TO HELP ANY ONE.
>>>>THERE
>>>>>>IS
>>>>>>NO ONE ON THE PD LIST I HAVE EVER BAD M MOUTH WE HAVE EMAIL TO FOR
>>>>THAT
>>>>>>LETS
>>>>>>HELP EACH OTHER SO EMAIL NOT LIST TO COMPLAIN  WE ARE TO HELP ONE AND
>>>>>>OTHER
>>>>>>[log in to unmask] Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Wendy Siegel" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 12:17 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi Ned!
>>>>>>>I understand your point, but I don't know if I agree. I am very much
>>>>>>an
>>>>>>>independent thinker, and I find pros and cons to any side. Just
>>>>>>because
>>>>>>>I am not in the church at this time in my life doesn't mean that I
>>>>>>won't
>>>>>>>be in the future. It is just not something I feel I need at this
>>>>time,
>>>>>>>but who knows what tomorrow will bring? I know people whom I admire
>>>>>>who
>>>>>>>are in the church, and sometimes even independent thinkers need what
>>>>>>>being part of a group can provide. There is strength in numbers, and
>>>>>>if
>>>>>>>we (PWP) could ever compromise and pursue a common goal, just think
>>>>>>what
>>>>>>>could be accomplished! :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Wendy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network
>>>>>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ned Gardner
>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 7:56 AM
>>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Wendy:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Am I correct when say your independent thinking has led you to not
>>>>>>join
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>church, and also have the ability of interpreting  the intent of my
>>>>>>>thought
>>>>>>>process?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ned
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Wendy Siegel" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:51 AM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ned:
>>>>>>>>Belonging to a church does not preclude someone from being an
>>>>>>>>independent self informed thinker. One way to effectively
>>>>communicate
>>>>>>>>might be to stop calling names and assuming that you are better or
>>>>>>>>smarter than they are. By the way, I don't belong to a church, but
>>>>I
>>>>>>>do
>>>>>>>>believe in a higher power.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Wendy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>From: Parkinson's Information Exchange Network
>>>>>>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ned Gardner
>>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:02 AM
>>>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Peggy:
>>>>>>>>Please remember when  referring to the "church herd"
>>>>>>>>it could  never include an independent self informed thinker such
>>>>as
>>>>>>>>your
>>>>>>>>self.   What are your thoughts on how to effectively
>>>>>>>>communicate with the church herd.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ned
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: "Peggy Willocks" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 9:39 AM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ned
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Please remember when referring to the anti-abortionists as the
>>>>>>>"church
>>>>>>>>>herd," that not all of the herd is created equal.  I am part of
>>>>the
>>>>>>>>church
>>>>>>>>>herd, but DO NOT agree with the present stand on stem cell usage.
>>>>>>>And
>>>>>>>>>regardless of what anybody says, one CAN be pro-life and an
>>>>advocate
>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>stem
>>>>>>>>>cells simultaneously.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>(See an article done a while back -
>>>>http://www.parkinsons-information-exchange-network-online.com/parkmail1/
>>>>>>>>2003c/msg00091.html )
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Peggy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>From: Ned Gardner
>>>>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:03 AM
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Rayilynlee:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The church herd would rather see aborted material go straight to
>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>incinerator rather than used for any stem cell research.  You see
>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>>>deprives the woman of any
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>possibility of feeling that something good can come from
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>her choice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ned
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>From: "rayilynlee" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 10:54 PM
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Dee
>>>>>>>>>>These same people are also doing other evil things besides
>>>>opposing
>>>>>>>>ESCR
>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>NT.  I tell you we are entering a terrible period of history.
>>>>>>>>>>Ray
>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>From: "Dolores Buente" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 7:53 AM
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Dear Jennifer,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I share in your frustration.  It seems that we are living
>>>>through
>>>>>>>an
>>>>>>>>>>>important chapter in medical and moral history.  Later, when
>>>>this
>>>>>>>>period
>>>>>>>>>>>is recorded,
>>>>>>>>>>>it will likely be compared to past practices and beliefs such as
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>Salem
>>>>>>>>>>>witch hunts and the persecution of people who were labeled
>>>>>>heretics
>>>>>>>>>>>because they
>>>>>>>>>>>declared that the world is round.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>History shows us that it often takes much effort and bravery to
>>>>>>>>advance
>>>>>>>>>>>society forward. Look back at the struggle of individuals who
>>>>>>>fought
>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>the right
>>>>>>>>>>>of family planning.  They faced the wrath of those people and
>>>>>>>>>>>institutions
>>>>>>>>>>>who declared it sinful to practice birth control.  The same
>>>>people
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>institutions who today declare it sinful to use cells in a
>>>>petrii
>>>>>>>>dish
>>>>>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>>alleviate
>>>>>>>>>>>pain and suffering.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Dee
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
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