Rick
I like  the medieval  mystic Meister  Eckhardt's little  story about life
being like a bird flying into a  room from where we don't  know and out the
window to we don't know where either
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick McGirr" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: Moral certainty


> Well...
>
> In the times when John's Revelation was written, man had no idea that
> we are flying thru space on a tiny speck of dust, on the outer arm of
> a spiral galaxy, in a universe that has uncounted millions of
> galaxies.  Further, his prediction of a fiery conflagration as the
> last chapter of earth's history will only come true if enough of us
> believe the story.  But if it happens, WWIII on earth will be an
> indiscernable blip on the energy scope for most of the universe.
>
> Science doesn't know much more than John about the end of the
> universe.  We are like travelers who woke up in the middle of a bus
> trip to find our bus has busted the guardrail and is airborne.  We're
> trying to figure out what happened.  But at least we are not jumping
> to conclusions.
>
> Is science uncommon?  It's becoming moreso in these days of religious
> fervor.  But it shouldn't be.  People don't know it, but we all use
> the scientific method several times a day.  But there's a point at
> which people's beliefs get in the way, and the scientific method is
> abandoned, in order to avoid the pain of discovery.
>
> I think it is wise to have assumptions, rather than set-in-stone
> beliefs.  I try, humbly, to live each day based on the preponderance
> of evidence, to put it clumsily.
>
> That's a little of what I think.  What do you think?
>
> Enjoy!
> Rick McGirr
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ned Gardner" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 5:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Moral certainty
>
>
>> Rick:
>>
>> What is scientific about common sense?
>>
>> By definition it is only common.
>>
>> Science and religion do agree that the
>> end of the "she-bang" will be rather warm.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Ned
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Rick McGirr" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: Moral certainty
>>
>>
>> > As a matter of fact, I take great comfort in the fact that my
> beliefs
>> > are verifiable, and refutable, through the scientific method (also
>> > known as common sense).  There is nothing truly permanent in the
>> > universe, including the whole she-"bang" itself.  And that is the
> true
>> > source of humility.
>> >
>> > Rick
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Ned Gardner" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 1:59 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Moral certainty
>> >
>> >
>> >> Ray:
>> >>
>> >> Reasonable doubt; moral certainty
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  When one is "beyond doubt" or an issue has been settled "beyond
>> > doubt," it
>> >> means that certainty has been established to such a degree that
>> > there can be
>> >> no question whatsoever of the truth. On almost every question,
> the
>> > only
>> >> people who claim to be 100% beyond doubt are gods, egotists, and
>> > fanatics.
>> >> Mature people generally allow for the possibility, however slim,
>> > that what
>> >> they Know for Certain may be disproved.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> REASONABLE DOUBT -- ".refers to the degree of certainty required
> of
>> > a juror
>> >> before he or she can make a legally valid determination of the
> guilt
>> > of a
>> >> criminal defendant.The term doesn't require that the evidence be
> so
>> > clear
>> >> that no possibility of error exists; it means that the evidence
> must
>> > be so
>> >> conclusive that all reasonable doubts are removed from the mind
> of
>> > the
>> >> ordinary person. See also moral certainty."
>> >>
>> >> "MORAL CERTAINTY -- certainty beyond a reasonable doubt; a
>> > conviction based
>> >> on persuasive reasons and excluding doubts that a contrary
>> > conclusion can
>> >> exit. A juror is said to be morally certain of a fact when he or
> she
>> > would
>> >> act in reliance upon its truth in matters of greatest importance
> to
>> > himself
>> >> or herself."
>> >>
>> >> "REASONABLE MAN (OR PERSON) -- a phrase used to denote a
>> > hypothetical person
>> >> who exercises qualities of attention, knowledge, intelligence and
>> > judgment
>> >> that society requires of its members for the protection of their
> own
>> >> interests and the interests of others."
>> >>
>> >> Ned
>> >>
>> >> From http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "rayilynlee" <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 12:11 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: Moral certainty
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Moral  certainty is the cause  of  wars,  bigotry, intolerance
> and
>> > much
>> >> > suffering.  The person who is  certain  he  is right about as
> yet
>> >> > unanswerable  questions is a tremendous obstacle to progress.
>> > Education
>> >> > teaches  you  how much  you don't  know and defines the
>> > boundaries of
>> >> > your
>> >> > knowledge.
>> >> >
>> >> > My education tells me a cell is a cell and there is  good
> reason
>> > to call
>> >> > it a cell, not a  person.  I need  to hear some good reasons
> why
>> > a cell
>> >> > is
>> >> > a  person to change my mind, not ooh  don't  name-call.
>> >> >
>> >> > Rayilyn Brown, MA  major History. minor Philosophy, UCLA
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Ned Gardner" <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:25 PM
>> >> > Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Don:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The
>> > more
>> >> >> uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely
> what
>> > is
>> >> >> right
>> >> >> and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has
> been
>> > the work
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who
>> > have
>> >> >> whooped
>> >> >> them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is
>> > always
>> >> >> skeptical and tolerant.
>> >> >> -- H. L. Mencken, Minority Report (1956)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Ned
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Don Mckinley" <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 2:32 PM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: Souls in limbo
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>>
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