On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 "B.Bruce Anderson" wrote:

>Actually, what we need is a good controversy.  Darn, I just can't think
of any....  >How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?  >One
to change the bulb, one to complain that the bulb is violating the socket,
one to secretly wish she were the socket, one to secretly wish she >were
the bulb, while the last one gets all charged up and turned on >watching
the others.

B. Bruce...looks like you've accomplished your goal of "stirring the pot".

However, as a feminist, I can recall a joke a number of years being told
about guys named Bruce.  At the time, I thought it ignorant and in poor
taste. The only thing it accomplished was a temporary false sense of
superiority for the person telling it. When he observed no one joined him
in laughter, he quietly slunk back his cave.

On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 Ivan M Suzman wrote:

>To call women "girls" is incredibly out-of-touch with modern attitudes!!
>I know you're trying to be playful and arousing,  but as a man who tries
>to be conscious of fairness, I realy oppose  your posting this kind of
>joke!

Ivan...was pleased to read your opinion this a.m. There's no one I respect
more, than a non-sexist male who speaks his mind. The world needs more of
you.

On Fri, 10Oct 1997 bob Anibal wrote:

>Maybe I am out of date (79+) but ____m y wife (77/20)  occasionally has
>the "girls" in for bridge.  She is not the youngest - others are 93, 83,
>82,  70.  My daughters - 50,  48 refer to themselves and their friends as
>girls and their daughters 13,  24, 26 do the same.  My feeling is that
>any female of the species particularly younger than me is a girl.  Or are
>Ivan's feelings a regional thing.  For those of you unfamiliar with New
>England culture they have some interesting, sometimes strange and often
>entertaining colloquial customs.

Bob...I'm going to be 63 on Sunday, if a guy your age called me "girl", I
would be insulted and ask you to refrain from it.

No... it isn't regional and coloquial speech can be symptomtic of
attitudes and beliefs like any other.  My two daughters would not put up
with my husband, myself, or their two brothers calling them girls. They
passed the "girl" stage when they arrived at puberty.

On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 Barbara Mallut wrote:

>Heck,  Ivan...my MOTHER still calls me a "girl," and I think of myself as
that also.  What IS the big deal, huh?

>Ivan,  Ivan,  Ivan!    Sheesh!  Come ON, m'friend!.   There's some REALLY
>important issues that need addressing by a concerned public...like, for
>instance the Udall bill... so why nit-pick and waste all that energy and
>that fine mind of yours on such a "non-issue!"

Barb... since my Mother died in 1987, I'd give anything to  hear her call
me "girl"...or ANYTHING else for that matter. She was a strong influence
in my life. But a "good ole girl" she was not.

Language is hardly a "non-issue".  While changing language will not alone
end racism or sexism it does influence attitude and behavior. (Replacing
handicap with disability will not help people with PK keep their jobs
either.)

There is  no one who enjoys a good joke more than I.  In fact, if
someone doesn't have a sense of humor, there's something wrong!  But if
that humor hurts someone, that's another story.

Peace,

Clara Nistler